Archived Urgent Help Needed Posts - Please, help me out of this mess ...

Print Page | Close Window

Please, help me out of this mess ...

Printed From: CanadaStudentDebt.ca
Category: Immediate Attention and Info!
Forum Name: Archived Urgent Help Needed Posts
Forum Description: Read through the files for info..
URL: https://www.canadastudentdebt.ca/forum_posts.asp?TID=6530
Printed Date: 27/March/2026 at 3:46am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.07 - https://www.webwizforums.com

Topic: Please, help me out of this mess ...

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Subject: Please, help me out of this mess ...
Date Posted: 26/September/2012 at 3:51am

I've been following this forum for a while and finally decided to present my own problems with OSAP and Royal Bank.

Many years ago (early 90s) while I was still living in BC, I borrowed through BCs student loan program. At the time these loans were still being handled by the banks. Before 2000, my BC loan fell into default due to lost payments made to Royal Bank (RBC). They acknoweledge their error, and put my loans back into good standing just in time for me to begin studies again in Ontario through OSAP. First OSAP loan was in 2001. In the fall of 2005, RBC failed to update my full-time student status. When I discovered the problem, the 30 day limit on the Schedule A (?) document showing my student status had already elapsed. I was no longer a full-time stuudent and could not get an updated document. As a result RBC refused to roll back the date of my return to studies and forced immediate repayment of all accumulated interest. I wasn't able to do it. I therefore didn't qualify for interest relief.

I fought and fought with them. No progress.

At this point, my life was a struggle and I was feeling really badly, and I simply got stubborn. I refused to pay anybody (OSAP or RBC) anything at all until this error was fixed because I also consider this to be an OSAP administration error. All previous study dates after 2001 had been automatically updated when I signed the document. For whatever reason, this time, it wasn't.

Fast forward several years to today. I have in my hand a letter from Candada Revenue Agency demanding a listing of my income and expenses and an acknowledgement of the Federal Portion of my debt in the amount of $37,000.

I have a wife and a newborn baby. I am living on Parental Benefits through EI plus Music teaching income earned by my wife.

How do I even begin to address these issues. I am still angry. I think the whole darn thing should be rolled back and put back in good standing, and I should only be making payment on the original amount borrowed. Furthermore, Royal Bank should be punished for their repeated screwups.

Replies:

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 27/September/2012 at 12:16pm

CAn you substantiate their error in management and handling of your file?

-------------
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 28/September/2012 at 12:52am

Thanks for your reply.

Substantiating my claim after all of these years is getting a bit challenging. No doubt, Royal bank has a record of my dispute. Have they modified the conditions of my student status to their advantage? Who knows.

I have my copy of the original signed statement proving my return to studies. If he dates have not been tampered byeither the student loan service center or royal bank, if you were to call them, you'd immediately discover a discrepancy between the dates Royal Bank has for my study end date, and the end date Student Loan service center has.

Still, I am amazed the system can simply ignore a dispute, allow Royal Bank to collect their guarenteed portion from the Federal Government, and now Canada Revenue Agency people can't even differentiate between the loan from Royal and the loan from OSAP.

CRA is threatening to seize my bank account. Can they do this with a student loan and no judgement?

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 01/October/2012 at 7:00am

... and today I just received a letter:

"This letter is to notify you that the Canada Revenue Agency has attempted on several occasions to recover your debt of ....

Therefore, the CRA will be referring your file to the Department of Justice Canada with instructons to initiate legal proceedings agains you."

Oddly enough, I actually want this to happen.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 04/October/2012 at 3:53am

Is it my imagination or is this loan of mine rapidly approaching the date of being Stats Barred.

I have never made a payment on OSAP (Federal and Provincial) loans acquired after January 2002. First attempt to initiate repayment was made in July of 2006. I have never signed, paid, nor acknowledged anything since then as a result of the dispute. After how many missed months is the loan considered in default?

They are now threatening legal action. What is the critical date for calling it stats barred: The date when I am before the judge, or the date when I am served with an order to appear in court?

Posted By: footloose
Date Posted: 04/October/2012 at 1:31pm

Your original post is somewhat unclear and before I can offer an explanation as to what is happening, I require more information.

Did you receive both a Federal student loan and a B.C. Provincial student loan from the Royal Bank (RBC ) prior to August 1, 1995?

If so, what is the status of the Federal student loan? Is it paid, is it in default or are you currently making payments on this loan and to whom?

And, what is the status of the B.C. Provincial student loan? Is it paid, is it in default or are you currently making payments on this loan and to whom?

If my assumptions are incorrect, please provide further details as to when you received your student loans, both Federal and B.C. Provincial, from who and to whom you were/are making payments

If you are not making payments on these loans, when did you cease making payments?

When did you receive your Ontario Provincial student loan and from whom?

What is the status of the Ontario Provincial student loan? Is it paid, is it in default or are you currently making payments on this loan and to whom?

Have you ever been contacted by a collection agency regarding an outstanding and unpaid student loan? If so, who was the collection agency and which loan(s) were they assigned to collect? If "yes", when did they contact you?

If you can answer these questions and provide further details regarding your student loans, I can begin to unravel your problem and provide some insight as to what is happening.

-------------
Educating one Consumer at a time

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 05/October/2012 at 12:59am

Thanks for your reply footloose, and I am sorry for not being clear.

Actual Study End Date: December 2005.

Royal Bank Sais my Study End Date is: April 2004.

National Student Loan Service Center believes study end date is: December 2005.

Royal Bank never attempted to withdraw money from my account after April 2004.

National Student Loan Service Center attempted, unsuccessfuly in July (??) of 2006.

Since returning to school in 2002, no payment has been made to anybody. All loans were kept in good standing until Royal Bank falsely concluded my study end date was April 2004.

I have never provided a written statement acknowledging my debt.

1. All BCSAP loans were acquired in 1994/95. All OSAP loans were acquired after 2002 and ending in 2005. My BCSAP loans were in good standing until the Royal Bank error in 2005.

2. Only the BCSAP loans were administered by Royal Bank. The OSAP loans were administered by the National Student Loan Service Center.

3. In all cases I received both a federal and provincial loan.

4. All federal parts are now with Canada Revenue Agency including the guarenteed portion of the loan acquired through BCSAP and distributed and managed by Royal Bank.

5. The $37,000 I mentioned is ONLY the part with CRA. Where is the provincial parts? Spread out all over the place; I don't know.

6. When Royal Bank messed up once again and forced my BC loans into default AGAIN, and when I got no support from anybody, I became very angry and stubborn, and refused to make payment on ALL loans until this issue was resolved.

7. See 6 again. No payments have been made to ANY loan. EVERYTHING is in default. Mistake or not, I now have to deal with the consequences of my own stubborness and anger with an administration that wouldn't fix their own mistake.

8. Have I been approached by collection angencies? Yes, several times. Each received my story. Nobody was paid anything. NCO was the most recent one. They usually bug me for a while and then vanish.

9. two weeks ago, I was about to begin a verbally agreed upon payment arrangement with CRA for the federal portion. They then sent me paper work for outling my income and expenses. It was on this paper work where I discovered how much money they actually wanted me to sign for and acknowledge. Given the issues, I refuse to sign this. Even before the deadline for returning this paper work, I received the first threat that they were going to send this to Justice Canada.

Thanks for your help, and please continue firing questions at me if I'm still not being clear.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 05/October/2012 at 1:00am

Wish there was an edit button.....

That 2004 date above should read 2005.

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 05/October/2012 at 4:47am

Royal-NCO wrote:

1. All BCSAP loans were acquired in 1994/95. All OSAP loans were acquired after 2002 and ending in 2005. My BCSAP loans were in good standing until the Royal Bank error in 2005.

What was the error, and can you prove that they erred?

Royal-NCO wrote:

5. The $37,000 I mentioned is ONLY the part with CRA. Where is the provincial parts? Spread out all over the place; I don't know..

The provincial portion is with Ontario Shared service Branch in Sudbury Ontario. The Collection Management Unit.

Royal-NCO wrote:

9. two weeks ago, I was about to begin a verbally agreed upon payment arrangement with CRA for the federal portion. They then sent me paper work for outling my income and expenses. It was on this paper work where I discovered how much money they actually wanted me to sign for and acknowledge. Given the issues, I refuse to sign this. Even before the deadline for returning this paper work, I received the first threat that they were going to send this to Justice Canada.

If they are writing to you with these threats then the liklihood of them following through is quite high.

CRA is paying closer attention and taking legal action more frequently as an effort to protect the government's interests, those being the student loans. Limitation issues and sizeable balances are certainly triggers. The external factors such as economic climate an certain behaviors that are frustrating to their system.

Those financial information forms that they send out to you to complete and return are a dangerous tool of theirs. The over-scrutinize all of the entries and if it looks like you can't pay they think that you are not being honest and hiding something. Plus, they have all your personal information (and spouse's/partners if you are not too careful) and that aids them in using their power to frustrate your system. They have all the power of the govertnment behind them and are seldom held accountable for anything that would be considered unlawful it seems, based on all the scandals surfacing within Canada Revenue Agency.

There is a way to fill these financial forms out without having bad things happen afterwards.

If you submitted a financial questionaire to them then that is an acknolwedgment if you didn't somehow change the wording of the disclaimer on the bottom. If this is the case, then based on what you described, the process you really should take is appealing to the govenrments to have the loans removed from active recovery due to hardship with the extenuating circumstances you have pointed out. If you can substantiate them. If you get sued then this process will become extremely difficult.

So - rather than putting together loan history you should be taking the route I just described, unless you are going to revist the proposed payment arrangement you were mentioning. Unless you want to go court and arm wrestle with a 400-pound gorilla that is only going to rip your arm out of it's sockets in the end. It's a crazy system and I can bring several hundred people forward who have gone through this virtual nightmare.

My question in this is why would you even consider reaching a payment arrangement with CRA without a financial capacity, such as an income or means?

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 05/October/2012 at 7:15am

Johnny,

Thanks for your reply.

With your permission, I may have to give you a call and explain all of this to you in detail. I am reluctant to express too much detail online.

Nonetheless, I will say again, no written acknowledgement of my loans has occured since I signed the last loan document when I borrowed for the last time. No payment has been sent. No financial questionnaire has been filled out, signed, or sent to anyone.

If my calculation is right, we are past the six year point. I think the government has already lost their chance to seek a judgement against me. I think they are trying to scare a payment out of me so that they can restart the clock.

First Issue:

For the last two years, I have been working a seasonal ( April to October ) job earning slighlty better than minimum wage. Last winter, I collected EI. This year, I qualify for parental benefits through the employment insurance program. Because of the self-employment nature of my wife's work as a musician, we calculated that we were better off with me at home on the parental benefits while she went out with her gigging and teaching. We make more money this way. However, her income is unpredictable, therefore the parental benefits are critical.

2nd issue:

There was a small overpayment awarded to me on my EI last year. I discovered this only recently. They were about to take one half of my parental benefit check to cover this overpayment. When I called to negotiate a smaller deduction, the issue with Student Loan was discovered. I was informed at that time that although my parental benefit cheque would not be taken to deal with the Student Loan, they would garnish my bank account where it was being deposited. Apparently, they don't need a judgement to do this. At that time, two weeks ago, I decided that it may better to negotiate a payment plan on the Student Loan, rather than risk losing the parental benefit. Having read more now about the Stats Barred issue, I am wondering now if I should really call CRA's bluff. Is it in fact too late for them to collect through a judgement?

Issue 3:

The error is very simple. Royal Bank failed to update my student status, forcing me into early repayment. I discovered this issue too late and by then the document proving my student status was no longer valid. There is a 30 day limit on the validity of the document. They requested a $600 + payment of interest to put my loan back in good standing before I could go on interest relief. I was broke at the time, going to the Food Bank regularly and could not make this payment. I fought with them, tried to get them to understand that they had failed to update my student status. They refused to accept their own mistake. I consider this also to be flaw with the National Student Loan Service Center and the Financial Award center at the University. For 3 years in a row, by simply signing the loan document, my student status was correctly updated with both Royal, and NSLSC. This year, it wasn't. Everybody wiped their hands of the issue, and refused to take responsibility. I got stubborn and said, if you won't take responsibility for your error, I won't take responsibility for the debt.

Proof? Royal and NSLSC have two diffferent study end dates. I have the document proving my continued studies at the time.

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 05/October/2012 at 7:45am

Yes, sure. You can call me over the weekend if you have the time, or next week. whatever works for you. Call 902-861-1210. THere is certainly some opportunity for you here. Give me a holler and I will chat with you about it.

Johnny

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 06/October/2012 at 3:44am

Thanks Johnny.

Given the direction I am considering with this debt, I have to get on the phone on Tuesday and make absolutely certain that I have got the dates right. I have this nagging feeling I am out by one year. I've got to be sure of this. I'll call you afterwards so we can discuss the best path and what I will need to pay you.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 06/October/2012 at 4:00am

No, I am right! I got them!!

I remember walking down the street after working a shift at a little part-time job. I remember seeing my account over-drawn after Student Loan Service Center attempted withdrawl. I emailed my Mother that I had quit that job.

That was August 2006. I think the Government is too late.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 06/October/2012 at 4:18am

Is this information up to date?

http://canadastudentdebt.ca/csdfaq.asp#_Toc64478664" rel="nofollow - http://canadastudentdebt.ca/csdfaq.asp#_Toc64478664

No referral to Justice if ....

" the loan is becoming stats barred within 12 months of the referral"

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 06/October/2012 at 6:51pm

That information was from a while ago. My new site coming out shortly has all of the updates and online tools for borrowers.

That segment of information pertains to the directives issued concerning collection agencies and their handling of the student loan accounts. Collection agencies are no longer beiong used now.

The department of justice will commence proceedings if Canada Revenue Agency refers it. If the debt is barred then they do not pursue. If they did start an action and the debt is discovered to be barred before the action was started then it will be terminated, providing it is caught.

CRA will seize the opportunity to disrupt a limitation issue at any time if they happen to catch one creeping up to the that limitation finish line. Justice Canada can start an action the day before barring and that will reset it immediately.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 07/October/2012 at 2:42am

Hope this won't be a double post. I got a strange error the last time.

When did they discontinue using collection agencies. I was approached by NCO in April 2010. At that time, I was wanting to sponsor my wife into Canada and was concerned my debt would disqualify me. Consequently, I arranged a payment arrangement with NCO, but never followed through. However, I fear now they may have got me to make a good faith payment through the online banking. I can't remember if I made that payment. Wish I still had my bank statement from that month.

I can I discretely ask when my loan was last acknowledged?

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 07/October/2012 at 5:55am

August of 2009. NCO would have been contacting you about some other debt.

You can if you want, or I will gather that information for you if you wish. We can do a conference call if you prefer. If I am participatingyou will be safer in the long run.

Less hassle for you because if you call they will grill the hell out of ya first. They don't with me in mediation and general intervention work.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 09/October/2012 at 1:50am

Interesting. Just got a call from a collection agency about the BC student Loans with RBC. What was their name (my memory is terrible these days - lack of sleep from new baby)? NCR? 1-204-926-3173. They have set a "writeoff" date of February 2007. They refused to tell me when the loan was last acknowledged in writing. However, they want me to send again the document proving that I returned to school all those years ago when the student status got screwed up. That would probably qualify as an acknowledgement of the loan. Blah! I'm sick and tired of this nonsense, but from what I can see, a big chunk of this is soon going to disappear from my credit report if I am paitient for a little while longer.

I really hate behaving like this. I really wanted to be honorable and pay this debt, however when I get screwed by people and nobody is willing to cooperate with me, I get really stubborn. Why should I pay all that interest? Without the default, I would have qualified for interest relief during most of those years.

Posted By: footloose
Date Posted: 09/October/2012 at 4:45am

In the academic year of 1994/1995, you applied for and received a Federal student loan and a B.C. student loan which was received from the Royal Bank ( RBC ). Both of these loans were guaranteed by the Federal government and the B.C. government respectively. That means that should you default on either or both of these student loans, the respective governments would reimburse RBC for the defaulted loan and the loan would then be transferred back to the respective government for recovery. During the period that you were in full-time attendance at a post-secondary school, you made no payments on either of these loans.

You then moved to Ontario to continue your studies and after 2002, you applied for and received an Ontario student loan through OSAP. At that time, in Ontario, all student loans both Federal and Provincial were applied for through an Integrated Application Form and the application was made to the NSLSC. Funds were deposited directly into your bank account from Human Resources and Skills Development Canada ( HRSDC ). You did not mention that you had received another Federal student loan at that time so I am going to assume that you only received an Ontario Provincial loan. Upon completion of your studies, your Ontario Provincial loan repaymets would be made directly to NSLSC. If indeed, you did receive another Federal student loan at this time, it would be treated exactly the same as your Provincial student loan with payments made to the NSLSC.

In the meantime, you continued with your studies until December 2005 which was your "end of study date". Due to a mix-up with RBC, for whatever reason, they showed your "end of study date" as April, 2004. That meant that you would have had to start repaying your Federal student loan and your B.C. Provincial student loan to RBC starting in November, 2004, 6 months after your "end of study date: Obviously, that didn't happen as you were still in full-time attendance at school.

At this point, both of these loans fell into default and because of the mix-up at RBC regarding upgrading your student status to a full-time student, you refused to make any repayments to RBC. Of course, that meant that you had defaulted on your student loans as far as RBC was concerned and because both of these student loans were guaranteed by both the Federal and the B.C. Provincial governments, these loans were returned to the respective governments in return for reimbursement of these defaulted student loans. The Federal student loan was returned to the NSLSC and the B.C. Provincial loan was returned to StudentAid BC. RBC is now "officially out of the picture".

In regards to your Ontario Provincial student loan and possibly another Federal student loan received at the same time, these loans are also in default with the NSLSC.

STATUS OF YOUR STUDENT LOANS

1. The Federal student loan that you received from RBC was transferred back to the NSLSC and has subsequently been transfer4red to the CRA for collection. If this loan was defaulted upon in 2004 and no payments or written signed personal acknowledgements were made by you since 2004, then this loan is "statute-barred". The CRA knows this. That is why you received a Statement of Income and Expenses and were asked to complete it and acknowledge the debt of $37,000. This is a serious "trap" because had you signed it and remitted it to the CRA, you would have restarted a new 6 year limitation period and now your Federal student loan would no longer be "statute-barred". This tactic would provide the Department of Justice a unique opportunity to seek a judgement against you. DO NOT SIGN AND SUBMIT THIS FORM UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

2. The B.C. Provincial student loan that you received from RBC was transferred back to StudentAid BC. If this loan was defaulted upon in 2004 and no payments or written signed personal acknowledgements were made by you since 2004, then this loan is "statute-barred". In addition, pursuant to Section 9 of the B.C. Limitation Act, not only is this debt "statute-barred", the debt has been extinguished. That means that no collection agency can chase you for repayment of this debt.

3. Any Federal student loan that you may have received when you applied for the Ontario Provincial student loan will be treated identically to the Federal student loan that you received from RBC. It is quite possible that this loan was also transferred to the CRA for collection. A phone call to the NSLSC will reveal whether this loan is still currently held by the NSLSC or has been transferred to the CRA for collection. And, once again, if this loan was defaulted upon in June 2006, 6 months after your "end of study date" and no payments or written signed personal acknowledgements were made by you since 2006, then this loan is "statute-barred".

4. The Ontario Provincial student loan that you received from Human Resources and Skills Development Canada ( HRSDC ) is a different story. Pursuant to Paragraph 16(1)(k) of the Ontario Limitations Act, 2002, there is NO LIMITATION PERIOD for the collection of student loans issued under the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities Act. That means that the Ministry can chase you to your grave or until the loan is paid, whichever occurs first. Knowing this, no doubt you will have collection agencies come calling. The official collection agency for outstnding and unpaid Federal student loans is the CRA. However, in Ontario, the Ministry assigns outstanding and unpaid Provincial student loans to private collection agencies for recovery.

You also mentioned in your posts that your main source of income is from 2 sources. Part-time work and Parental Benefits ( Employment Insurance ). I should also point out that if the Ministry sues you and obtains a judgment for an outstanding and unpaid student loan, there are certain sources of income that cannot be garnished for an unpaid student loan.

They are as follows: Income received under

1. Old Age Security Act

2. Canada Pension Plan Act

3. Unemployment Insurance Act

4. Workers' Compensation Act

5. Ontario Works Act

7. Ontario Disabiity Support Program

Bank accounts can be garnished ( seized ) providing they are "tainted". If you are receiving your Parental Benefits by Direct Deposit and no other deposits are being made to this account, then this account is "untainted" and CANNOT be seized except for unpaid income taxes. However, should you make a deposit to this account from any source ( even if it is just $1 ), then this account becomes "tainted" and can be garnished by anyone who has a judgment against you. If you receive your Parental Benefits by cheque and either deposit the cheque into your bank account or you cash the cheque and deposit any monies into your bank account, then this bank account is now "tainted".

To avoid any future problems regarding garnishment of your bank account, I suggest that you set up 2 bank accounts. One account to be used STRICTLY for the Direct Deposit of your Parental Benefits and the other account for all other deposits. The account containing the Direct Deposits from the Parental Benefits CANNOT be garnished. The other account would be subject to garnishment.

P.S. When you were contacted by NCO collection agency in April 2010, that would have been for the Ontario Provincial student loan. As I mentioned previously, the Ministry has assigned your OSAP loan to a collection agency for recovery. If the collection agency fails to recover this loan, then the Ministry will issue a "Directive" to the CRA to exercise their "right of set-off" and if this fails, the CRA will then issue a "Directive" to the Attorney General of Ontario to commence legal proceedings to obtain a judgment.

-------------
Educating one Consumer at a time

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 09/October/2012 at 6:10am

NCO could also be assigned to recover the bank risk loan though Footloose. Unless R-N paid that off and is sure it is gone. NCO has RBC contracts. Sending in a written statement of any sort will also reset the limitation clock, if there is one that applies to the loan.

Footloose wrote:

"2. The B.C. Provincial student loan that you received from RBC was transferred back to StudentAid BC. If this loan was defaulted upon in 2004 and no payments or written signed personal acknowledgements were made by you since 2004, then this loan is "statute-barred". In addition, pursuant to Section 9 of the B.C. Limitation Act, not only is this debt "statute-barred", the debt has been extinguished. That means that no collection agency can chase you for repayment of this debt."

Footloose, that is an assumption. You shouldn't tell people their debt is in fact barred without having the support documentation of that. Otherwise, what happens if it isn't, and they cause trouble for this person?

Posted By: footloose
Date Posted: 09/October/2012 at 10:08am

Johnny wrote

"NCO could also be assigned to recover the bank risk loan..."

This statement makes no sense for 2 reasons. First, Federal student loans issued before August 1, 1995 were guaranteed by the Federal government and second, B.C. Provincial student loans were always guaranteed, no matter when they were issued. In addition, we know that the Federal student loan is now in the hands of the CRA for collection. If the Federal student loan was issued after July 31, 1995 and before August 1, 2000, then this loan would not be currently at the CRA for recovery. And even if it was a "Put-Back" loan, the CRA would now be attempting to collect on this loan, not RBC or NCO.

The B.C. Provincial student loan was defaulted upon in November, 2004. R-N clearly stated that no payments have ever been made or any signed written acknowledgements have been made on ANY student loans. Therefore, this loan is not only "statute-barred" but is also "extinguished" in November 2010. Strictly speaking, the contact that R-N received from NCO in August, 2010 could have been regarding the B.C. student loan, but in all probably, it was in regards to the Ontario Provincial student loan. A simple phone call to StudentAid BC would confirm that this student loan is now both "statute-barred" and "extinguished".

If the Federal student loan was not "statute-barred", then why did the CRA issue to R-N a "Statement of Income and Expenses" and requesting him to also sign a statement acknowledging an unpaid student loan of $37,000 thereby getting a new limitation period of a further 6 years? The answer is obvious.

That is why that I am absolutely certain that both the Federal student loan(s) and the B.C. student loan are "statute-barred".

-------------
Educating one Consumer at a time

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 10/October/2012 at 1:06am

Johnny and Footloose,

Thanks very much for the answers.

However, there does appear to be a clear conflict in the information you two are giving me, OR I have the dates wrong and different loan Acts appy, OR the most recent credit agency to contact me yesterday about both my Federal and Provinicial BC loans is actually breaking the law.

Yes, Footloose, I did get both a Federal and a Provinicial loan through OSAP.

Frankly because of all the confusion of how these different loans get moved from agency to agency, I don't know what is with whom. I know that even the CRA couldn't tell me what portion of the $37,000 loan they are collecting is actually from RBC, however based on my most recent contact with the collection agency yesterday, I suspect that that collection ageny ( RBC ) and the CRA are both attempting to collect the same Federal loan of about $8500 left over from my days in BC. Does that mean that my Federal loan collected through OSAP is $37,000 - $8,500 = $28,500? Perhaps, it means my total federal debt is $37,000 + $8,500 = $45,800? In any event, it still demonstrates an outrageous interest rate during a period of time when interest rates have been at an extreme low. My total debt, Federal PLUS Provincial (BC + Ontario) = $42,000 when I finished university.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that my BC loans and Federal loans are Statute Barred. This would leave me with only the Ontario Provincial debt. Do I inadvertanly acknowledge the Federal portion of that OSAP debt by acknowledging the Ontario portion? Remember that I borrowed through the Canada Student Loan Service center beginning in January 2002.

I would consider this a reasonable compromise at this time to begin payment of the Ontario loan.

Johnny, I am collecting info right now on this forum. I will still contact you and get you to go through the actual facts in my case so that this is resolved with certainty. I just hope that by using you as an agent, you won't accidentally acknowledge a Statute Barred loan.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 10/October/2012 at 1:15am

Footloose, you may have missed me correcting an error several posts ago. The 2004 date should actually be 2005.

Actual Study End Date: December 2005.

Royal Bank Sais my Study End Date is: April 2005.

National Student Loan Service Center believes study end date is: December 2005.

Royal Bank never attempted to take payment from me. NSLSC attempted withdrawl from my account in August 2006 ( and failed)

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 10/October/2012 at 2:15am

Just got another call from the something "credit adjusters". I confronted them directly stating that this "alleged debt is statute barred" and that they are not to contact me again. She rebutted immediately with the claim that because I am living in Ontario, Ontario laws apply, giving her freedom to contact me. She did not directly rebutt the claim that the debt is statute barred.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 10/October/2012 at 2:24am

By the way, I was a resident living and borrowing in BC at the time. I moved to BC in 1992 and remained there until summber of 2000.

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 10/October/2012 at 2:42am

If you owe RBC, someone is trying to collect it. Secondly, if I was going to deliver a result on a limitation study, an analysis report would be forthcoming outlining the limitation issue, and/or actual documentation from the government once it is all worked out.

There are TOO many people living in hardship who have assumed that a limitation issue was in place only to find out later on there wasn't. That is all I am saying. Financial and socially related problems are not something that can be resolved without doing the work.

Many of the questions concerning various issues here in the forums cannot be "solved" without analysis and examination. For example, you have a fever and a cramp in your gut. You "think" it is a gastro virus or possibly food poisoning because that is what you read on the internet or some medical book. So, you play it off and assume it is what you read. All of the sudden, you get sicker and things get worse. You are rushed to emerg and are diagnosed with something more severe.

My point is no one can tell you it is barred, or it isn't barred. No one can tell the next person they can settle a debt for 10%, or the other 30%. No one can tell another person that they will qualify for loan remission or removal due to hardship with extenuating circumstances.

Opinions are not solutions. THe only way to solve a problem is by action, unless the problem is something like asking what 23 plus 54 is.

This is why I tell people if they want that help it is available to them. Sometimes it is free. Sometimes it is not. It depends on the scope of work involved.

Now, that is out of the way... Credit Adjusters does not sound familiar. Metropolitan credit adjusters does. Sopme of the agencies that collect for RBC are Collectcom Credit, PArtners in Credit, NCO, ARC, Alliance One, CBV. THey are a couple of others around as well.

If you get me involved I can assure you, and so can the attorneys I work with, that there is ZERO risk of acknowledgment. Just don't assume something is barred. That is a dangerous assumption in today's student debt environment.

Johnny

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 10/October/2012 at 2:56am

Step 1 - identify every student loan that is alleged to be due.

Step 2- Harness them up with consent and LPOA.

Step 3- Limitation study on anything that is alleged to be outstanding.

Step 4 - if government loans are barred or no longer existant, we capture record of it. Same applies for anything alleged to be owed to the bank.

Step 5- Live your life without having to look over your shoulder and be assured that it is in fact no further threat to you or your security.

You will not acheive any of these steps through online forums and ask Jeeves.

The deliverables are quite clear - it is statute barred, or it is not. If it is - that is your best benefit being in a situation whereas you are unable to pay it. If it is not barred, then you will be in complete control because you will have gained intel about what the potential and real risks are, and how to prevent anything from causing you further harm.

You cannot lose with these two results man.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 10/October/2012 at 2:58am

I understand, and I am not assuming. I am afraid I have the dates wrong; afraid to contact people to discover the date and open the can of worms, risking acknowledgment; afraid to deal with the consequences at a time when financially I really can't;

Even afraid to find out how much you're going to charge to fix this for me, wondering if at this time I can even afford it.

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 10/October/2012 at 4:57am

You don't pay me until it is over, except my hard and out-of pocket costs as a retainer. I don't charge high rates considering the work, financial/social/emotional benefits to you in the end if it is successful. If it is unsuccessful, there is no fee upon completion. I bear the financial risk concerning the work done and base it solely on success. I can't give you a quote though until I know what I am doing for you in regards to a scope of work. It is a flat rate - start to finish. That is something I have to sit down and talk to you about over the phone. Each case is too unique.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 11/October/2012 at 2:32am

Johnny,

Your comment earlier about the LPOA made we wonder if you would be in effect filing a consumer proposal for me. Would this be another 8 year ding on my credit report?

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 12/October/2012 at 1:01am

For those of you considering the statute barred issue, it is rather interesting reading through some of the court cases listed here.

http://www.canlii.org/en/" rel="nofollow - http://www.canlii.org/en/

Search "statute barred" for example.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 12/October/2012 at 1:34am

http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlight.do?text=student+loan+barred+six+years&language=en&searchTitle=Search+all+CanLII+Databases&path=/en/ca/fct/doc/2011/2011fc1003/2011fc1003.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.canlii.org/eliisa/highlight.do?text=student+loan+barred+six+years&language=en&searchTitle=Search+all+CanLII+Databases&path=/en/ca/fct/doc/2011/2011fc1003/2011fc1003.html

Trying to find good examples. This one is interesting because it clearly shows the judge's decision proccess as he determines whether it is stats barred.

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 12/October/2012 at 2:45am

This is a great example of how the limitation law and acknowledgment works. If a debt is barred and you write to them even so much as to say "hello", and that is the only word in the letter, it is defined as an admission of liability and will reset the limitation period.

Bankruptcies are another nemesis to limitations because if one files for bankruptcy the bankrupt has to disclose all debts. Barred Canada Student Loans and bank loans are allowed to be archived and reactivated if they are acknowledged at a later date, with the exception of provincial guaranteed/direct or bank risk in the province of BC and Newfoundland where the rigtht to recover is terminated.

When a bankrupt files then the trustee issues notice to the creditors, which includes the student loan providers. A bankruptcy notice, statement of affairs, dividend, discharge, or any written communication or action by the trustee is an admission of liability.

One of the things The CFW Group teaches people is how to protect themselves from these hazzards. That is part of our consumer protection and development service.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 12/October/2012 at 3:47am

It certainly makes me wonder, and makes me wary; how is it possible for even you to avoid acknowledging a debt. The moment you put anything in writing, I'm done for. How do I respond if they file a claim against me? The simple act of saying I dispute this debt, is an acknowledgemnet.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 12/October/2012 at 7:25am

Having learned that only written acklnowledgement qualifies as acknowledgement, I bit the bullet and made a phone call to the the Student Loan Service Center.

The default date was more than six years ago with both Royal Bank and the NSLSC!

Now, did I acknowledge the debt with a good faith payment in 2010? I can't remember!!

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 12/October/2012 at 8:22am

If you did make a payment then that is definitely an admission of liability. NSLSC can't tell you if it is barred or not anyway. You have to go up the hill to the feds and Justice Canada.

-------------
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 12/October/2012 at 8:24am

Or, the bank or provincial government that is owed.

-------------
Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 13/October/2012 at 4:14am

In any event, Johnny, I'm calling their bluff. The timing of my Parental Benefits situation, their financial/Bills questionnaire with a request for acknowledgement of the $37000, followed promptly by a demand for full payment or a referral to Justice Canada, suggests that they already know they have screwed up. I'm going to sit here now and wait for them to serve me. I don't think we should start questioning and probing them yet. Let's give them another few weeks just to be safe.

Next step is to go to my bank and find out if there was an online bill payment made to a collection agency in March/April 2010.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 13/October/2012 at 4:19am

My concern is that they may argue the critical date is the date they file the paperwork with Justice Canada, and not the date they actually serve me with the papers. If the critical date is the date they filed with Justice Canada, than they may have just barely beaten the six year mark.

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 13/October/2012 at 10:51am

If a claim is filed on a debt that is barred, and you defend on the premise of limitations, then the onus is on them to prove it is not.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 19/October/2012 at 4:29pm

With these integrated loans (Ontario/Canada) that I received between 2002 and 2004, they appear as one loan ( each year). They aren't divided between federal and provincial. Is this how they excape the 6 year limit rule that applies federally? Is there no limitation on these integrated loans because I borrowed in Ontario? Which limit rules apply federal or provincial (Ontario)?

This is a very, very confusing, and incredibly stupid, passive aggressive system that sets students up for trouble and then punishes them for getting into trouble, trouble that the system created in the first place. Then they whine about so many students going into default.

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 20/October/2012 at 5:53pm

The CSL4 is your Canada - Ontario loan, which is integrated. However, they are two different loans and there is a limitation period for the federal one. The limitation period is reset everytime you acknowledge it, as mentioned in many posts concerning the term.

Concerning the Ontario loan, the Ontario Limitation Act applies to the Ontario government's portion. The Ontartio law says there are no limitations with respect to the recovery of debt owed to the province. OSAP is on that list.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 21/October/2012 at 1:52am

Thanks Johnny,

However, your answer begs the question: which part(s) - ontario and/or canada, is the CRA currently attempting to collect?

I know Footloose stated earlier that at some point the province sends the provincial part to the CRA to collect it as well. Does this $37,000 actually include the provincial part too? Has the CRA already set aside the federal part because its statute barred?

Atleast the CRA charges a reasonable interest rate at $112/month, that's only about 4% per year.

What's interesting is that their monthly statement they send me shows a greatly reduced minimum payment representing only the amount I owe for the EI overpayment.

Anyway, I'm back to the same place. I need help to figure this out, but I am going to push this a few more weeks to be sure its really past the six years before we start questioning them.

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 21/October/2012 at 10:38am

CRA can only collect debt owed to the government of Canada. In respect of set-off though the provinces are able to seize federal income tax rebates, but it is a legislative process and the provinces are able to use CRA for that purpose.

CRA is not a collection agency.

Your debt is likely called a " CDON" loan, which is a CSL4 (Canada Ontario loan). YOu will find that in a case of default, the government that you default on will be the one to pursue you.

If you receive any statyements in the mail it will clearly illustrate who is collecting for who.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 10/November/2012 at 3:43am

For several years now, I have had a credit card, in good standing, with an institution not connected to any of my student loans. Can either provincial or federal government seize that card and garnish the available credit on that card?

i.e There's $720 of available credit. Can either government take that available credit and apply it to student loan debt?

Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 10/November/2012 at 6:19am

No, they can not draw on your credit card.

-------------
Administrator
Mark OMeara
Author of Let Go and Heal: Recovery from Emotional Pain
https://LaughSingWrite.com - http://bit.ly/heal2024

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 11/November/2012 at 3:21am

Absolutely not.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 12/November/2012 at 7:24am

Thanks Johnny and Administrator.

Thinking again about this barred issue, and I found this:

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/learning/canada_student_loan/Publications/annual_report/2010-2011/glossary.shtml" rel="nofollow - http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/learning/canada_student_loan/Publications/annual_report/2010-2011/glossary.shtml

Default:

A Canada Student Loan, issued under the direct loans regime, enters into default once a borrower has missed payments for 270 days. Loans issued under the guaranteed and risk-shared loan regimes enter into default when payments are in arrears for 90 days or more.

So when does the 6 year clock start ticking: after 9 months of missed payments, or from the day the day one is supposed to begin repayment?

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 12/November/2012 at 11:00am

The new generation program (Federal Direct) begins it's limitation clock on the first day of delinquency when payment is due. Each time a payment is made, a bankruptcy occurs, or a carelessly written instrument is issued it resets the clock.

Guaranteed Canada student loans under the previous program carry the same 6-year limitation period, which begins to tick tock on the date of subrogation, meaning the day the debt becomes due and payable to the Crown. So, when the government is required to pay the bank for the guaranteed portion, that is when the limitation begins. Limitation clocks are disprupted and reset upon a bankruptcy, voluntary payment, or carelessly written instrument (letter, legal document, etc).

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 22/November/2012 at 2:19am

I was just reading one of the other posts about bankruptcy and suddenly realized that there is no way the Government would actually choose to take legal action against me at this time. Even if the debt isn't statute barred, it is 3 months away from qualifying for a discharge in bankruptcy. Both they and the provincial government would immediately lose everything in bankruptcy. Granted I too would lose, but that loss is less severe than dealing with a massive unfair debt and the destroyed credit rating.

Perhaps, these two issue of statute barred and bankruptcy are very useful bargaining chips. You see, I am not actually trying to avoid the ORIGINAL debt. What I object to is paying all of that extra accumulated interest and allowing them to profit from what was originally their mistake. I would be quite happy if they rolled back all of the interest, collected together all of the pieces of the debt and sent it back to NSLSC, and then placed me back in good standing. I might even be able to afford to make payments on that REPAIRED debt.

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 22/November/2012 at 4:54am

If you are under the protection of bankruptcy then the trustee will apply for discharge. If the Crown and province do not put up any fight to oppose then they will be discharged if you meet the criteria for it. The system is very tight and in many cases non-negotiable. CRA and other governments don't appear to care one way or the other if people go bankrupt. Some CRA tax and non-tax collectors tell people to go bankrupt while refusing to compromise - or even consider it. How sick and twisted is that? Bankruptcy is in the minds and thoughts of everyone because of the powerhouse that controls and markets it. so don't think threatening bankruptcy will leverage in your favor. It won't. The government loses nothing because your neighboring student loan borrower or two pay for the shortfall. That is how the upper echelon of the federal government see the world in respect to student loan recoveries and profits.

I know you are frustrated because of the system and it's stranglehold on you and everyone else indebted to them. THe system will sink it's teeth in for that interest because it is their ROI and cash cow. They fight for it. They thirst for it. If you argue them they toss contract law at you and remind you that you signed for it in agreement of the terms. The only way to stop oiling this deadly system is literally stop taking out student loans and bring back the age old view and attitudinal position whereas experience replaces the education because now it appears that education is a disability to Canadians.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 22/November/2012 at 5:25am

Thanks Johnny for your comments.

Its a very sick system. A system where they justify very high interest to account for high default levels - defaults which exist in many cases, if not most cases, because of their own administrative screw-ups and poorly considered regulations.

So where does my own sense of morality fit into this? I be the good guy and dutifully pay my debt and allow the administration to get away with their errors which costs future students anyhow because of how they justify jacking interests rates to account for their own errors. Or, I continue to refuse to pay, and I still am causing damage to other students by contributiing to the high interest rates through my default.

Ultimately, I am left with the conclusion that I am morally in the right to be absolutely selfish in this case.

1. I pay, and pay hugely a debt I can't affford for many, manny years into the future and allow them to get away with their error.

2. I refuse to pay and everybody just remains quiet and these debts sit in the background for ever and ever, falling off of my credit rating in about 1 year. Trouble is, as my assets accumulate, I'll be clobbered in the future when they realize I have something they can collect in court.

3. I refuse to pay, they take me to court, and I lose. This forces my hand: I declare bankruptcy. I pay a multi-year price with my credit rating which I am paying anyhow whether I choose 1) or 2).

4. I refuse to pay, they take me to court, I win. Problem: the provincial debt is still payable! We're back to 1) again.

Number 3 looks most attractive to me both financially and morally. I am back to the same conclusion. Take me to court, please! I dare you!

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 29/November/2012 at 5:32am

Interesting to see how the facts are being manipulated to the advantage of CRA and the NSLSC.

I just pulled up my credit report to check what is being said about my CSL.

Date opened: 2006-09

Last activity: 2007-07

Based on that information, it would not be statute barred because the last activity date is still within the six years. However, I know with certainty I did not make a payment or acknowledge the debt in writing at that time. Presumably the onus is on them to prove that I acknowledged the debt at that time.

When did the rule that "written" acknowledgement was necessary come into effect?

Interesting to see that all negative info on my credit report is due to disappear by August 2013.

Posted By: Royal-NCO
Date Posted: 17/December/2012 at 6:51am

So, where'd the debt go?????

For the last few months I have been receving monthly notices that I owe an over payment on my EI, and a $37,000 Canada student loan. I have paid off the EI in full, but the Canada Student loan notice has disappeared too. If it were sent on to Justice Canada, would it disappear from the notice, or is this an indication that they have acknowledged it as statute barred?

Assuming its barred, this is my plan now for the ontario portion.

It is about 9 months away from falling off my credit report, so I am going to now dutifully set aside $300 month into a high interest savings account. Once I have accumulated the $12,000 they say I owe provincially, I will pay it off in full with a single lump sum payment. I figure this makes sense since small payments directly now would simple renew the activity date on my credit report. If I pay it off with a lump sum, I may be able to convince them not to update it on my credit report. Of course, there is still a chance the provincial goverment will take me to court.