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Royal-NCO 
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 Topic: Please, help me out of this mess ...
Posted: 26/September/2012 at 3:51am |
I've been following this forum for a while and finally decided to present my own problems with OSAP and Royal Bank. Many years ago (early 90s) while I was still living in BC, I borrowed through BCs student loan program. At the time these loans were still being handled by the banks. Before 2000, my BC loan fell into default due to lost payments made to Royal Bank (RBC). They acknoweledge their error, and put my loans back into good standing just in time for me to begin studies again in Ontario through OSAP. First OSAP loan was in 2001. In the fall of 2005, RBC failed to update my full-time student status. When I discovered the problem, the 30 day limit on the Schedule A (?) document showing my student status had already elapsed. I was no longer a full-time stuudent and could not get an updated document. As a result RBC refused to roll back the date of my return to studies and forced immediate repayment of all accumulated interest. I wasn't able to do it. I therefore didn't qualify for interest relief. I fought and fought with them. No progress. At this point, my life was a struggle and I was feeling really badly, and I simply got stubborn. I refused to pay anybody (OSAP or RBC) anything at all until this error was fixed because I also consider this to be an OSAP administration error. All previous study dates after 2001 had been automatically updated when I signed the document. For whatever reason, this time, it wasn't. Fast forward several years to today. I have in my hand a letter from Candada Revenue Agency demanding a listing of my income and expenses and an acknowledgement of the Federal Portion of my debt in the amount of $37,000. I have a wife and a newborn baby. I am living on Parental Benefits through EI plus Music teaching income earned by my wife. How do I even begin to address these issues. I am still angry. I think the whole darn thing should be rolled back and put back in good standing, and I should only be making payment on the original amount borrowed. Furthermore, Royal Bank should be punished for their repeated screwups.
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 27/September/2012 at 12:16pm |
CAn you substantiate their error in management and handling of your file?
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 28/September/2012 at 12:52am |
Thanks for your reply. Substantiating my claim after all of these years is getting a bit challenging. No doubt, Royal bank has a record of my dispute. Have they modified the conditions of my student status to their advantage? Who knows. I have my copy of the original signed statement proving my return to studies. If he dates have not been tampered byeither the student loan service center or royal bank, if you were to call them, you'd immediately discover a discrepancy between the dates Royal Bank has for my study end date, and the end date Student Loan service center has. Still, I am amazed the system can simply ignore a dispute, allow Royal Bank to collect their guarenteed portion from the Federal Government, and now Canada Revenue Agency people can't even differentiate between the loan from Royal and the loan from OSAP. CRA is threatening to seize my bank account. Can they do this with a student loan and no judgement?
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 01/October/2012 at 7:00am |
... and today I just received a letter:
"This letter is to notify you that the Canada Revenue Agency has attempted on several occasions to recover your debt of ....
Therefore, the CRA will be referring your file to the Department of Justice Canada with instructons to initiate legal proceedings agains you."
Oddly enough, I actually want this to happen.
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 04/October/2012 at 3:53am |
Is it my imagination or is this loan of mine rapidly approaching the date of being Stats Barred. I have never made a payment on OSAP (Federal and Provincial) loans acquired after January 2002. First attempt to initiate repayment was made in July of 2006. I have never signed, paid, nor acknowledged anything since then as a result of the dispute. After how many missed months is the loan considered in default? They are now threatening legal action. What is the critical date for calling it stats barred: The date when I am before the judge, or the date when I am served with an order to appear in court?
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footloose
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Posted: 04/October/2012 at 1:31pm |
Your original post is somewhat unclear and before I can offer an explanation as to what is happening, I require more information.
Did you receive both a Federal student loan and a B.C. Provincial student loan from the Royal Bank (RBC ) prior to August 1, 1995?
If so, what is the status of the Federal student loan? Is it paid, is it in default or are you currently making payments on this loan and to whom?
And, what is the status of the B.C. Provincial student loan? Is it paid, is it in default or are you currently making payments on this loan and to whom?
If my assumptions are incorrect, please provide further details as to when you received your student loans, both Federal and B.C. Provincial, from who and to whom you were/are making payments
If you are not making payments on these loans, when did you cease making payments?
When did you receive your Ontario Provincial student loan and from whom?
What is the status of the Ontario Provincial student loan? Is it paid, is it in default or are you currently making payments on this loan and to whom?
Have you ever been contacted by a collection agency regarding an outstanding and unpaid student loan? If so, who was the collection agency and which loan(s) were they assigned to collect? If "yes", when did they contact you?
If you can answer these questions and provide further details regarding your student loans, I can begin to unravel your problem and provide some insight as to what is happening.
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 05/October/2012 at 12:59am |
Thanks for your reply footloose, and I am sorry for not being clear. Actual Study End Date: December 2005. Royal Bank Sais my Study End Date is: April 2004. National Student Loan Service Center believes study end date is: December 2005. Royal Bank never attempted to withdraw money from my account after April 2004. National Student Loan Service Center attempted, unsuccessfuly in July (??) of 2006. Since returning to school in 2002, no payment has been made to anybody. All loans were kept in good standing until Royal Bank falsely concluded my study end date was April 2004. I have never provided a written statement acknowledging my debt. 1. All BCSAP loans were acquired in 1994/95. All OSAP loans were acquired after 2002 and ending in 2005. My BCSAP loans were in good standing until the Royal Bank error in 2005. 2. Only the BCSAP loans were administered by Royal Bank. The OSAP loans were administered by the National Student Loan Service Center. 3. In all cases I received both a federal and provincial loan. 4. All federal parts are now with Canada Revenue Agency including the guarenteed portion of the loan acquired through BCSAP and distributed and managed by Royal Bank. 5. The $37,000 I mentioned is ONLY the part with CRA. Where is the provincial parts? Spread out all over the place; I don't know. 6. When Royal Bank messed up once again and forced my BC loans into default AGAIN, and when I got no support from anybody, I became very angry and stubborn, and refused to make payment on ALL loans until this issue was resolved. 7. See 6 again. No payments have been made to ANY loan. EVERYTHING is in default. Mistake or not, I now have to deal with the consequences of my own stubborness and anger with an administration that wouldn't fix their own mistake. 8. Have I been approached by collection angencies? Yes, several times. Each received my story. Nobody was paid anything. NCO was the most recent one. They usually bug me for a while and then vanish. 9. two weeks ago, I was about to begin a verbally agreed upon payment arrangement with CRA for the federal portion. They then sent me paper work for outling my income and expenses. It was on this paper work where I discovered how much money they actually wanted me to sign for and acknowledge. Given the issues, I refuse to sign this. Even before the deadline for returning this paper work, I received the first threat that they were going to send this to Justice Canada. Thanks for your help, and please continue firing questions at me if I'm still not being clear.
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 05/October/2012 at 1:00am |
Wish there was an edit button..... That 2004 date above should read 2005.
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 05/October/2012 at 4:47am |
 Royal-NCO wrote:
1. All BCSAP loans were acquired in 1994/95. All OSAP loans were acquired after 2002 and ending in 2005. My BCSAP loans were in good standing until the Royal Bank error in 2005. |
What was the error, and can you prove that they erred?
Royal-NCO wrote:
5. The $37,000 I mentioned is ONLY the part with CRA. Where is the provincial parts? Spread out all over the place; I don't know.. |
The provincial portion is with Ontario Shared service Branch in Sudbury Ontario. The Collection Management Unit.
Royal-NCO wrote:
9. two weeks ago, I was about to begin a verbally agreed upon payment arrangement with CRA for the federal portion. They then sent me paper work for outling my income and expenses. It was on this paper work where I discovered how much money they actually wanted me to sign for and acknowledge. Given the issues, I refuse to sign this. Even before the deadline for returning this paper work, I received the first threat that they were going to send this to Justice Canada. |
If they are writing to you with these threats then the liklihood of them following through is quite high. CRA is paying closer attention and taking legal action more frequently as an effort to protect the government's interests, those being the student loans. Limitation issues and sizeable balances are certainly triggers. The external factors such as economic climate an certain behaviors that are frustrating to their system. Those financial information forms that they send out to you to complete and return are a dangerous tool of theirs. The over-scrutinize all of the entries and if it looks like you can't pay they think that you are not being honest and hiding something. Plus, they have all your personal information (and spouse's/partners if you are not too careful) and that aids them in using their power to frustrate your system. They have all the power of the govertnment behind them and are seldom held accountable for anything that would be considered unlawful it seems, based on all the scandals surfacing within Canada Revenue Agency. There is a way to fill these financial forms out without having bad things happen afterwards. If you submitted a financial questionaire to them then that is an acknolwedgment if you didn't somehow change the wording of the disclaimer on the bottom. If this is the case, then based on what you described, the process you really should take is appealing to the govenrments to have the loans removed from active recovery due to hardship with the extenuating circumstances you have pointed out. If you can substantiate them. If you get sued then this process will become extremely difficult. So - rather than putting together loan history you should be taking the route I just described, unless you are going to revist the proposed payment arrangement you were mentioning. Unless you want to go court and arm wrestle with a 400-pound gorilla that is only going to rip your arm out of it's sockets in the end. It's a crazy system and I can bring several hundred people forward who have gone through this virtual nightmare. My question in this is why would you even consider reaching a payment arrangement with CRA without a financial capacity, such as an income or means?
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 05/October/2012 at 7:15am |
Johnny, Thanks for your reply. With your permission, I may have to give you a call and explain all of this to you in detail. I am reluctant to express too much detail online. Nonetheless, I will say again, no written acknowledgement of my loans has occured since I signed the last loan document when I borrowed for the last time. No payment has been sent. No financial questionnaire has been filled out, signed, or sent to anyone. If my calculation is right, we are past the six year point. I think the government has already lost their chance to seek a judgement against me. I think they are trying to scare a payment out of me so that they can restart the clock. First Issue: For the last two years, I have been working a seasonal ( April to October ) job earning slighlty better than minimum wage. Last winter, I collected EI. This year, I qualify for parental benefits through the employment insurance program. Because of the self-employment nature of my wife's work as a musician, we calculated that we were better off with me at home on the parental benefits while she went out with her gigging and teaching. We make more money this way. However, her income is unpredictable, therefore the parental benefits are critical. 2nd issue: There was a small overpayment awarded to me on my EI last year. I discovered this only recently. They were about to take one half of my parental benefit check to cover this overpayment. When I called to negotiate a smaller deduction, the issue with Student Loan was discovered. I was informed at that time that although my parental benefit cheque would not be taken to deal with the Student Loan, they would garnish my bank account where it was being deposited. Apparently, they don't need a judgement to do this. At that time, two weeks ago, I decided that it may better to negotiate a payment plan on the Student Loan, rather than risk losing the parental benefit. Having read more now about the Stats Barred issue, I am wondering now if I should really call CRA's bluff. Is it in fact too late for them to collect through a judgement? Issue 3: The error is very simple. Royal Bank failed to update my student status, forcing me into early repayment. I discovered this issue too late and by then the document proving my student status was no longer valid. There is a 30 day limit on the validity of the document. They requested a $600 + payment of interest to put my loan back in good standing before I could go on interest relief. I was broke at the time, going to the Food Bank regularly and could not make this payment. I fought with them, tried to get them to understand that they had failed to update my student status. They refused to accept their own mistake. I consider this also to be flaw with the National Student Loan Service Center and the Financial Award center at the University. For 3 years in a row, by simply signing the loan document, my student status was correctly updated with both Royal, and NSLSC. This year, it wasn't. Everybody wiped their hands of the issue, and refused to take responsibility. I got stubborn and said, if you won't take responsibility for your error, I won't take responsibility for the debt. Proof? Royal and NSLSC have two diffferent study end dates. I have the document proving my continued studies at the time.
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 05/October/2012 at 7:45am |
Yes, sure. You can call me over the weekend if you have the time, or next week. whatever works for you. Call 902-861-1210. THere is certainly some opportunity for you here. Give me a holler and I will chat with you about it. Johnny
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 06/October/2012 at 3:44am |
Thanks Johnny. Given the direction I am considering with this debt, I have to get on the phone on Tuesday and make absolutely certain that I have got the dates right. I have this nagging feeling I am out by one year. I've got to be sure of this. I'll call you afterwards so we can discuss the best path and what I will need to pay you.
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 06/October/2012 at 4:00am |
No, I am right! I got them!! I remember walking down the street after working a shift at a little part-time job. I remember seeing my account over-drawn after Student Loan Service Center attempted withdrawl. I emailed my Mother that I had quit that job. That was August 2006. I think the Government is too late.
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 06/October/2012 at 4:18am |
Is this information up to date? http://canadastudentdebt.ca/csdfaq.asp#_Toc64478664 No referral to Justice if .... " the loan is becoming stats barred within 12 months of the referral"
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 06/October/2012 at 6:51pm |
That information was from a while ago. My new site coming out shortly has all of the updates and online tools for borrowers. That segment of information pertains to the directives issued concerning collection agencies and their handling of the student loan accounts. Collection agencies are no longer beiong used now. The department of justice will commence proceedings if Canada Revenue Agency refers it. If the debt is barred then they do not pursue. If they did start an action and the debt is discovered to be barred before the action was started then it will be terminated, providing it is caught. CRA will seize the opportunity to disrupt a limitation issue at any time if they happen to catch one creeping up to the that limitation finish line. Justice Canada can start an action the day before barring and that will reset it immediately.
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 07/October/2012 at 2:42am |
Hope this won't be a double post. I got a strange error the last time. When did they discontinue using collection agencies. I was approached by NCO in April 2010. At that time, I was wanting to sponsor my wife into Canada and was concerned my debt would disqualify me. Consequently, I arranged a payment arrangement with NCO, but never followed through. However, I fear now they may have got me to make a good faith payment through the online banking. I can't remember if I made that payment. Wish I still had my bank statement from that month. I can I discretely ask when my loan was last acknowledged?
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 07/October/2012 at 5:55am |
August of 2009. NCO would have been contacting you about some other debt. You can if you want, or I will gather that information for you if you wish. We can do a conference call if you prefer. If I am participatingyou will be safer in the long run.  Less hassle for you because if you call they will grill the hell out of ya first. They don't with me in mediation and general intervention work.
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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Royal-NCO
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Posted: 09/October/2012 at 1:50am |
Interesting. Just got a call from a collection agency about the BC student Loans with RBC. What was their name (my memory is terrible these days - lack of sleep from new baby)? NCR? 1-204-926-3173. They have set a "writeoff" date of February 2007. They refused to tell me when the loan was last acknowledged in writing. However, they want me to send again the document proving that I returned to school all those years ago when the student status got screwed up. That would probably qualify as an acknowledgement of the loan. Blah! I'm sick and tired of this nonsense, but from what I can see, a big chunk of this is soon going to disappear from my credit report if I am paitient for a little while longer. I really hate behaving like this. I really wanted to be honorable and pay this debt, however when I get screwed by people and nobody is willing to cooperate with me, I get really stubborn. Why should I pay all that interest? Without the default, I would have qualified for interest relief during most of those years.
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footloose
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Posted: 09/October/2012 at 4:45am |
In the academic year of 1994/1995, you applied for and received a Federal student loan and a B.C. student loan which was received from the Royal Bank ( RBC ). Both of these loans were guaranteed by the Federal government and the B.C. government respectively. That means that should you default on either or both of these student loans, the respective governments would reimburse RBC for the defaulted loan and the loan would then be transferred back to the respective government for recovery. During the period that you were in full-time attendance at a post-secondary school, you made no payments on either of these loans.
You then moved to Ontario to continue your studies and after 2002, you applied for and received an Ontario student loan through OSAP. At that time, in Ontario, all student loans both Federal and Provincial were applied for through an Integrated Application Form and the application was made to the NSLSC. Funds were deposited directly into your bank account from Human Resources and Skills Development Canada ( HRSDC ). You did not mention that you had received another Federal student loan at that time so I am going to assume that you only received an Ontario Provincial loan. Upon completion of your studies, your Ontario Provincial loan repaymets would be made directly to NSLSC. If indeed, you did receive another Federal student loan at this time, it would be treated exactly the same as your Provincial student loan with payments made to the NSLSC.
In the meantime, you continued with your studies until December 2005 which was your "end of study date". Due to a mix-up with RBC, for whatever reason, they showed your "end of study date" as April, 2004. That meant that you would have had to start repaying your Federal student loan and your B.C. Provincial student loan to RBC starting in November, 2004, 6 months after your "end of study date: Obviously, that didn't happen as you were still in full-time attendance at school.
At this point, both of these loans fell into default and because of the mix-up at RBC regarding upgrading your student status to a full-time student, you refused to make any repayments to RBC. Of course, that meant that you had defaulted on your student loans as far as RBC was concerned and because both of these student loans were guaranteed by both the Federal and the B.C. Provincial governments, these loans were returned to the respective governments in return for reimbursement of these defaulted student loans. The Federal student loan was returned to the NSLSC and the B.C. Provincial loan was returned to StudentAid BC. RBC is now "officially out of the picture".
In regards to your Ontario Provincial student loan and possibly another Federal student loan received at the same time, these loans are also in default with the NSLSC.
STATUS OF YOUR STUDENT LOANS
1. The Federal student loan that you received from RBC was transferred back to the NSLSC and has subsequently been transfer4red to the CRA for collection. If this loan was defaulted upon in 2004 and no payments or written signed personal acknowledgements were made by you since 2004, then this loan is "statute-barred". The CRA knows this. That is why you received a Statement of Income and Expenses and were asked to complete it and acknowledge the debt of $37,000. This is a serious "trap" because had you signed it and remitted it to the CRA, you would have restarted a new 6 year limitation period and now your Federal student loan would no longer be "statute-barred". This tactic would provide the Department of Justice a unique opportunity to seek a judgement against you. DO NOT SIGN AND SUBMIT THIS FORM UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.
2. The B.C. Provincial student loan that you received from RBC was transferred back to StudentAid BC. If this loan was defaulted upon in 2004 and no payments or written signed personal acknowledgements were made by you since 2004, then this loan is "statute-barred". In addition, pursuant to Section 9 of the B.C. Limitation Act, not only is this debt "statute-barred", the debt has been extinguished. That means that no collection agency can chase you for repayment of this debt.
3. Any Federal student loan that you may have received when you applied for the Ontario Provincial student loan will be treated identically to the Federal student loan that you received from RBC. It is quite possible that this loan was also transferred to the CRA for collection. A phone call to the NSLSC will reveal whether this loan is still currently held by the NSLSC or has been transferred to the CRA for collection. And, once again, if this loan was defaulted upon in June 2006, 6 months after your "end of study date" and no payments or written signed personal acknowledgements were made by you since 2006, then this loan is "statute-barred".
4. The Ontario Provincial student loan that you received from Human Resources and Skills Development Canada ( HRSDC ) is a different story. Pursuant to Paragraph 16(1)(k) of the Ontario Limitations Act, 2002, there is NO LIMITATION PERIOD for the collection of student loans issued under the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities Act. That means that the Ministry can chase you to your grave or until the loan is paid, whichever occurs first. Knowing this, no doubt you will have collection agencies come calling. The official collection agency for outstnding and unpaid Federal student loans is the CRA. However, in Ontario, the Ministry assigns outstanding and unpaid Provincial student loans to private collection agencies for recovery.
You also mentioned in your posts that your main source of income is from 2 sources. Part-time work and Parental Benefits ( Employment Insurance ). I should also point out that if the Ministry sues you and obtains a judgment for an outstanding and unpaid student loan, there are certain sources of income that cannot be garnished for an unpaid student loan.
They are as follows: Income received under
1. Old Age Security Act
2. Canada Pension Plan Act
3. Unemployment Insurance Act
4. Workers' Compensation Act
5. Ontario Works Act
7. Ontario Disabiity Support Program
Bank accounts can be garnished ( seized ) providing they are "tainted". If you are receiving your Parental Benefits by Direct Deposit and no other deposits are being made to this account, then this account is "untainted" and CANNOT be seized except for unpaid income taxes. However, should you make a deposit to this account from any source ( even if it is just $1 ), then this account becomes "tainted" and can be garnished by anyone who has a judgment against you. If you receive your Parental Benefits by cheque and either deposit the cheque into your bank account or you cash the cheque and deposit any monies into your bank account, then this bank account is now "tainted".
To avoid any future problems regarding garnishment of your bank account, I suggest that you set up 2 bank accounts. One account to be used STRICTLY for the Direct Deposit of your Parental Benefits and the other account for all other deposits. The account containing the Direct Deposits from the Parental Benefits CANNOT be garnished. The other account would be subject to garnishment.
P.S. When you were contacted by NCO collection agency in April 2010, that would have been for the Ontario Provincial student loan. As I mentioned previously, the Ministry has assigned your OSAP loan to a collection agency for recovery. If the collection agency fails to recover this loan, then the Ministry will issue a "Directive" to the CRA to exercise their "right of set-off" and if this fails, the CRA will then issue a "Directive" to the Attorney General of Ontario to commence legal proceedings to obtain a judgment.
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 09/October/2012 at 6:10am |
NCO could also be assigned to recover the bank risk loan though Footloose. Unless R-N paid that off and is sure it is gone. NCO has RBC contracts. Sending in a written statement of any sort will also reset the limitation clock, if there is one that applies to the loan. Footloose wrote: "2. The B.C. Provincial student loan that you received from RBC was transferred back to StudentAid BC. If this loan was defaulted upon in 2004 and no payments or written signed personal acknowledgements were made by you since 2004, then this loan is "statute-barred". In addition, pursuant to Section 9 of the B.C. Limitation Act, not only is this debt "statute-barred", the debt has been extinguished. That means that no collection agency can chase you for repayment of this debt." Footloose, that is an assumption. You shouldn't tell people their debt is in fact barred without having the support documentation of that. Otherwise, what happens if it isn't, and they cause trouble for this person?
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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Please, help me out of this mess ...