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what about credit card debt?

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Topic: what about credit card debt?

Posted By: supermod
Subject: what about credit card debt?
Date Posted: 16/November/2004 at 3:46pm

hello everyone!

Thanks to all for providing some good advice and providing advocacy to all of us who need it!

But what about credit card debt? I do have some. Do all the same rules apply as to student loans? Is Visa more likely to sue or seek judgement than the feds or prov.? Since Visa is international, can they seek a judgment against me in while I am in Europe? Is not being able to pay credit card debt similar to student loan debt as both are not criminal offenses - even defying judgment orders against u?

Islander, perhaps you know. Ferran, Johnny, a few others seem to know quite a bit.

Thanks all and when I figure out what my best course of action is then hopefully I can provide some info to expats living abroad as well!!

Debt really is a horrible thing. Moral and ethics play a huge role in all our discussions. But at some point you must survive and make ends meet. And big corporations, creditors, collections, and the like...well...morals? ethics? laws? Please!!! These *people* do not think twice about breaking laws, morals, and ethics. Look at Enron, dear old Martha, Conrad Black, the list goes on...and on...and on...did I say "and on"?....And if they do, they hire million dollar lawyers to commit unethical and immoral acts to save their butts! So why should we sweat about it! And these are people who CAN afford to pay off their debts!

Well I am finished venting now. Time to go to bed, rest, and put my mind at ease for a while. God I hate this mess! Anyone wanna put in a loonie with me for a big Lotto 6/49 jackpot? Just imagine... hmmmm.... Good night all.

Replies:

Posted By: Islander
Date Posted: 16/November/2004 at 5:04pm

Let me take a shot at this, ok?

Visa is international, but the bank who granted you the credit and approved you for the card is the creditor to whom you are indebted. They might or might not chase you all over the world for the debt. It depends on on a number of things, including which bank it is, the amount you owe, the likelihood of recovery and the ease with which they can find and prosecute you.

Some of the same rules apply, some don't. A bankruptcy, for example, if legitimate, definitely covers a credit card debt. The statutes of limitations are clear on consumer debt (6 years minus 1 day).

On the other hand, the guidelines for suing are different. A bank can sue the moment the card is defaulted if they wish. Their internal policies are what makes the determination. Banks aren't precluded from suing just because you make small payments.

There is nothing to fear as far as jail or similar penalties are concerned. The only time you run that kind of risk is if you tork(Johnny?) off a judge and he cites you with contempt of court. Then you risk being penalized for something other than the debt.

As for the moral issues.

I have argued elsewhere that there is no moral component to a business debt. It's money, it's a loan, it's business. I have also pointed out that corporations routinely restructure or avoid obligations entirely when circumstances change and that the corporate CEOs don't lose sleep over it. Nor would they permit their families to go without food shelter, clothing and some degree of luxury in order to satisfy a purely fiscal responsibility.

That, however, is far from recommending that we intentionally borrow money (as a student loan OR a credit card debt) and then choose not to repay it because we found a way to beat the system. That's fraud, of course, and immoral in my view.

If you are UNABLE to pay a debt because circumstances beyond your control preclude your honouring your obligations, it is reasonable to restructure or seek other remedies like bankruptcy. It is NOT reasonable to put yourself or your family through a lifetime of misery to meet unreasonable or impossible demands. If the demands include that undue suffering be required of your family or you, the demands are unreasonable.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't make some sacrifices to live up to your promises, but it does mean that you and your children should not go without food, medicine, clothing, shelter, and some level of comfort to make the payments.

But one thing I personally would never do is use companies like Enron or individuals like dear old Martha as my moral guideposts. To me that's like arguing that murder is okay, because it was okay for dear old Adolph or Charlie Manson. I would hope that we have a greater level of integrity and self respect than to model our behaviour on the very worst of society or even to use their actions as justifications for our own crappy behaviour.

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What? Me, worry?
Alfred E Newman

Posted By: Islander
Date Posted: 16/November/2004 at 5:05pm

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What? Me, worry?
Alfred E Newman

Posted By: supermod
Date Posted: 17/November/2004 at 9:24pm

Islander:

Thanks for the info but I must comment on some things. First, I am not modelling my behaviour or actions, whether potenial or immediate or otherwise, to the scum of the earth. I was just making a point that why put ourself in such misery and in such a moral/ethical dilemma if people and businesses who can routinely pay for debts abuse the system and dont those a wink of sleep over it.

Second, I firmly stand against people and businesses using the system to escape indebtness just because you can. We are obliged to pay for our loans. But if you cannot and it puts you in undue hardship then there are alternatives.

Third, if you one got himself into debt by frivilous spending sprees (crappy behaviour) then a) you better seek help to determine your problem and b) ya you have a moral obligation to pay. But if the indebtedness comes about by undue hardship, then like you say there are alternatives and help.

As for me, yes I did take out a student loan and yes do have credit card debt. My intentions are to find out what is the best alternative for me, regarding my financial situation. My debts are not out of frivilousness but rather necessity. Trying to strive by a better life by educating myself or paying for unexpected things life throws at you at the wrong time, without having the funding to pay for such things, is my sob story.

I agree with you totally each person should do their best to do what they can to pay. I am not running away from my debts. I just cannot pay anymore as the financial hardship is becoming unbearable. Gathering all the necessary info. about what all the alternatives are is the best way to make informed choices. And I sincerely thank you for all the info you have provided!

I will apologize in advance if I mistakenly read your post incorrectly. Sometimes the wording in emails and posts, due to lack of other communication clues, can be difficult to intrepret exactly. But I hope this clears things up a bit more.

Dually...across the pond

Posted By: Islander
Date Posted: 17/November/2004 at 11:31pm

That's cool, Supe.

Just making sure that there is a distinction between the two.

Hope we've been able to help.

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What? Me, worry?
Alfred E Newman

Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 18/November/2004 at 3:50am

Supermod,

If you reside in Europe, and have defaulted credit card debt, there would be really no chance of suing you - unless you owe hundreds of thousands and it is worth the creditor's while to seek you out.

Credit card debt is the most common of all financial crisis. If you can pay it, then great. If you cannot, this is where all the road blocks start to appear. Do I call them and tell them what I am going through? Will they understand? Will they continuously harrass me after I call them? What sort of information should I give them? Will they actually work with me rather than against me?

People fear things that threaten both integrity and personal security in some form or another. Finance is a large fear for many. If you are aware of things - and are fortunate enough to grasp the empowerment that accomanies this form of education (which I might add is not taught in any schools or universities); there would be no reason to fear - OR EVEN FILE FOR BANKRUPTCY. The most common reason for bankrutcy filing is FEAR. The most common reason for making wrong choices and bad business decisions is LACK OF AWARENESS. Finance problems are not only complex, they are an ENORMOUS psychotoxicity when they start to affect a person's mind, thoughts, ability to cope, self-esteem, character, mood, demeanor, behavior, etc.etc.etc. The collection and recovery process certainly fuels this psychotoxicity.

So, Supermod, if you fear something ... confront it once you are aware of what you are really confronting. You may think you are about to come face to face with an angry 400-pound gorilla, but in many cases, it is merely a 30-pound monkey on your back (with a nasty attitude).

To solve a problem ....

Enlightenment + Education = Empowerment. A very dear frind of mine in the legal profession exposed this to me long, long ago.

Johnny

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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting.

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