I'm new here and have been avidly reading all the forumd for the last 2 days.

I have some questions, and a story thats similar to many others I have read here.

Please can someone explain exactly what "stats barred" means? And when does it apply?

First up our story.

My name is Cesca (not my real name of course) and I was never a student here in Canada - but my husband was.  I am actually a new immigrant and do have a student loan still unpaid from my native country but thats another story altogether.

Anyway we got married in 2000.  DH's (dear hubby) student loans were all taken out BEFORE we were married so that I am not in any responsible for them, nor will I allow myself to become responsible for them.

Anyway  DH graduated from college in 1997, with about $16,000 of student loans. He was never able to get a full time job - most of it was seasonal and contract work. and he was applying for interest relief on the loans during this time as well. By 1999 he was becoming ill and eventually had to go on welfare (Ontario Works - we live in Toronto). He started the process of applying for Disability through ODSP. 

During the time he was working part time, contracts and summers, he racked up about $40,000 of debt on several credit cards, including helping to pay for our wedding. We got married in 2000.

DH was finally accepted for ODSP in 2001, and he's been on it ever since. Thats all the income he has been getting. I was not working at all (due to my immigration status - but again thats another story). By the end of 2001, I was pregnant and the bills were getting over our heads since he was paying out more than half the monthly income on minimum payments. He decided that he had no choice but to declare bankruptcy. So he did. Declared in Late 2001. Discharged in 2002. Ironically our son was born while he was an undischarged bankrupt.

THe next step was to then apply for loan forgiveness from the banks (Royal Bank) and OSAP for the student loans. Most of 2003 went on acquiring the medical reports necessary for that, as well as waiting for several months for the certificate of discharge to show up.

Eventually we were told by OSAP that $12,000 was to be forgiven and that $4000 was still to be paid back. It is my understanding that this $4000 was the "unsecured" part of the student loan.

The $4000 sat on his bank statements for a while. DH didnt pay anything, noone ever sent him anything to say that he had to pay or how much to pay. Noone ever mentioned interest relief either.

Then one day we noticed that the $4000 had disappeared from the bank statement. DH asumed that that portion was now forgiven as well.  This was the FIRST MISTAKE. We should have called to find out what happened to that $4000.

On August 1st this year (2004) DH's account was frozen. The bank claimed that the amount of $400 was needed to pay towards the outstanding balance of the student loan. We needed that money to pay our rent which was due that same day. DH got on the phone and had a chat. The bank kept demanding that he pay up. He kept saying. "I'm on a disability and cannot afford to pay. You're holding my rent and if I dont pay my rent today my family and I will be out on the street."  

Anyway they unfroze his account, so we could pay the rent. Shortly after another phone call from the bank said that they were sending his SL to the collections agency. DH said, "Hey you do what you gotta do. My credits no good anyway since I went bankrupt. I'll be happy to prove my income level to a judge."

On August 10th 2004 (just 10 days later) we got the first call from the collections agency (Alliance One) at 0815 am!!. THey havent stopped calling since then. I've been the one who scresns the call. I simply say that DH is unavailable. I've kept this up like a broken record. DH's disabilty means that he spends most if his time in bed. He's up in the evenings to spend time with our son, and he has to use a scooter (3 wheels with engine) to get around.

Oh yeah, DH did receive a Financial Questionaire from Alliance One, but has no intentions of filling it in and returning it - its due back tomorrow (27th) actually.

Todays call was different. The CA accused me of not behaving in a professional manner. I have never raised my voice or gotten upset. I've always said that "DH is not available. Who's calling please. And that I would pass the message on." Which I do. Its not my problem that DH doesnt return his calls. :)  Anyway the CA mentioned something about "rectifying the situation".  "Ma'am, DH has been unavailable for a month now. When will he be available?"  I keep replying that I don't know, but I will pass the message on. CA muttered something about his office. So I asked what his office was called. There was a pause and then he said "Alliance One" as if he did not want to mention it.

Up until now when I answer the phone, the CA has never identified themselves by name or business unless I ask. And then its only as W from Toronto, or W from Scarborough, or B from North York.

Even though I am not the debtor, shouldnt the CA still be identfying himself to me before I pass the phone to DH? (of course I'll never pass the phone over)

Does this mean he might want to declare justice  - not sure if thats the right way to express - to take DH to court?  When the calls first started DH has always said that he would happy to make arrangements to pay off the principle, but he refused to pay the horrendus interest charges the CA was mentioning. The early calls said the interest was $2 a day (thats $60 a month). The later calls now say $1 per day.

So today we sent a Cease and Desist letter to Alliance One - by certified mail.

I am aware that this may mean that the debt might be sent back to the bank or to another CA, but we'll deal with that when it happenes. DH actually wants his day in court to prove to the judge his level of income and that he truely cannot pay.

He cant ask his family - most of them are on either welfare or ODSP or low paying jobs as well.

So what do you guys think?? 

I really need to know "stats barred" fits into all this?

Thanks

Cesca

I can certainly understand if he racked up $40,000 to cover legitimate costs for living. However, would it not have been prudent to pay down some of your student debt as opposed to debt financing your wedding. I'm sorry, but it is difficult to empathize with your predicament when your part of your misfortune is of your own doing.

I dont want to sound too judgemental, but a civil ceremony at City Hall cost less than $400.00.

Your points regarding harrassing calls from the collector are well taken. Not to burst your bubble, but a cease and desist letter to a CA will not detract them from recovering an outstanding student loan.

Best of luck to you, friend!
 

If your disability reduces your ability to work, then you should be applying for disability. If approved, your loans would be removed from active collection.

Your disability has to reduce your ability to participate in the workforce, and it must be permanent.
There are medical forms to fill out and financial statements to be provided. Its not easy to qualify for. HRDC doesnt agree to it very easily. Your disability has to occur within 6 months of graduating.

The collection agents wont tell you this because they want their commission.

Contact the national student loans centre and apply for disability for your student loans. According to HRDC's interpretation of the policy, if you are single making less than $1604 per month net, then you would qualify. This amount could be challenged though....

With disability, the loan remains on the books, but out of active collection.

-------------------

I found this  on another forum written by Mark Meara (the owner of this website I beleive).

If the last statement above is true, then why are the CA's actively chasing my DH's debt when he is on a Disabilty, has been for the last 3 years and can prove it???

Could it have something to do with statute of limitations running out?

Cesca

DH tells me he actually graduated in Summer of 1998. (He couldnt get the loan until 1997, during his second year).  Add  6 months before you have to start repaying the loan, and that takes us to perhaps Xmas 1998 or early 1999. 6 years from that means either Xmas 2004 or early 2005.

Since acknowledgement of debt means a payment made, and DH has never made any payments, would I be right in thinking the SOL is due to expire Xmas this year or early 2005??

This would explain why the CA's are desparate to have us pay up. so that they can reset the clock to zero.

Any thoughts?

Cesca

Cesca,

One concern......is sending a cease and esist order considered acknowledgement of the loan? I could be wrong, but you do not necessarily have to make a payment to acknowledge a loan.

Pigeon,

Cease and desist order would be an acknowledgment of the loan. 

Ditto for a payment.

However, on the memo line of your check to the CA put "because this is the Prophecy of the Jedi". Perhaps this will avoid acknowledgement.

Any other clever thoughts from the group to avoid acknowledgement?

I far as I understand it ....the clock is reset after your DH was realeased from bankruptcy ......so you have a long way to go .....the same thing happened to me ....

Good luck

Applying for loan forgiveness reset the clock. That was an unambiguous acknowledgement of indebtedness.

If you plan to wait out the statutes, make very sure you know what the statutes are and what your rights are under the various laws that govern collection practices.

I assure you that if it is your intention to try to beat the statutes while they know how to contact you, they will go for a judgment when the time is getting short. To beat the statutes, you should not only be judgment-proof, you should be service-proof. You'd be best off if you were completely below the radar screen.

Good luck!

To beat the statutes, you should not only be judgment-proof, you should be service-proof. You'd be best off if you were completely below the radar screen.

How do we drop below the radar screen?

Well we sent the cease and desist letter. It does not acknowledge the debt. It simply requests that the CA to stop calling us. Which they must do, right?

Ok according to you guys, there are 3 resets of the clock - the bankruptcy discharge, the loan forgivenes and the letter. Can anyone say FOR SURE which would be the latest resetting of the clock.

What exactly does the law say about resetting the clock?

Does answering the phone even reset the clock despite my saying DH is not available? If thats the case, then between now and the next CA to get our debt, we will be getting either an answering machine or voice mail and screening all our calls.

Cesca

This is a matter of law. Therefore NOBODY can say anything for sure. That's why God in his wisdom and mercy gave us judges and lawyers.(Or maybe He just has a very twisted sense of humour).

What we're saying is that if a debt goes unserviced and anacknowledged for a statutorily defined period of time (that depends on the nature of the debt and different ones can have different limitation periods), it becomes legally unenforceable. You'd be best off talking to a professional who has a complete picture of your particular case.

As to how to drop off the radar screen; I don't think that's really a viable option in your case. It can be done and has been done by some of us (me included). It is a radical approach and not recommended in many cases.

This is not just a matter of not answering the phone or being really really quiet when the process server knocks on the door. Please note where I live to get some idea of the steps that need to be taken if you choose flight over fight.

Flight is not an option - except to elsewhere in Ontario. DH will lose his ODSP if he leaves Ontario for more than 30 days.  It is our only source of income.

Other than changing our phone number and having it unlisted, and getting an answering machine/voice mail, how else can we remain below the radar screen?

Noone has given me any real ideas for remaining out out of sight.

And you are saying that we do nothing at all - dont answer the phone, dont write letters - for the next 6 years??   DH is not very happy about that all.

As far as I am concerned if DH has not paid then he hasnt paid, and he will not be able to pay. And thus the 6 years will be up as of next year.

Cesca

Talking about what the CA knows and dont know - at one time they told CA that "you signed a contract for $4000. Now be a man and face up to your responsibilities."  They have no idea that this $4000 is just the unsecured portion of a larger debt.

It's not DH's fault that he became ill and had to go on a disability. CA's also dont seem to have any idea just how much someone on ODSP gets per month!! And they dont care either.

Cesca

 Cesca,

 You wrote:

 "To beat the statutes, you should not only be judgment-proof, you should be service-proof. You'd be best off if you were completely below the radar screen."

 There is no such thing as judgment proof with student debt unless the debt is statute barred. It doesn't matter what you  earn, or what you own, etc. The Crown will sue to keep the limitations from expiring more so now. The same with the provinces.

 And, just because the government (federal) does not have a service address for you doesn't mean they cannot get a judgment. CRA (Customs and Revenue ageny) is the federal government - and they can acquire judgments aghainst tax debtors - present or absent.

   You wrote:

 " Well we sent the cease and desist letter. It does not acknowledge the debt. It simply requests that the CA to stop calling us. Which they must do, right?"

 When you issue a letter like this to your lender , or it's third party, you are acknowledging the debt. A "cease and desist" letter simply states ... "all communications from your firm are to stop immediate (unless authorized by mail only)". You are giving an instruction to the agency to stop communicating with you about what? The price of teas in China? The Price of coffee beans in Columbia? Youhave issued a written requerst to the agency regarding the communication issues pertaining to your debt. That is an acknowledgment.

 To authenticate this, the acknowledgment of a debt constitutes as:

 1) a written promise to pay the money owing, signed by the borrower or his or her agent or other representative

 2) a written acknowledgment of the money owing, signed by the borrower or his or her agent or other representative, whether or not a promise to pay can be implied from it and whether or not it contains a refusal to pay

 3)  a part payment by the borrower or his or her agent or other representative of any money owing; or

 4) any acknowledgment of the money owing made by the borrower, his or her agent or other representative or the trustee or administrator in the course of proceedings under the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act or any other legislation dealing with the payment of debts. 

 Lastly,

 A telephone communication does not interfere with, or disturb the limitation period. There are only two things that can disrupt this "time clock", and they are 1) VOLUNTARY payment toward the debt in any way, and 2) Written acknowledgment, or any other form described in items 1-4 above.

 Nw, when I say "VOLUNTARY payment", this means any payment you offered to the lender and they accepted. If the lender (ie Federal or Provincial Government) seizes and income tax or GST rebater, this is not a Voluntary action on your part thus cannot be construed as acknowledgement. it was not you who offerd the payment. it was arbitrarily taken under the guidelines of the act.

 Johnny

Cesca,

I'm not sure you are going to find what you are looking for. You've asked for information about how to "duck below the radar". Unfortunatley, if ducking below the radar was that easy, we all would have done it a long time ago. There is no "underground railroad".

My only advice would be to find out more information regarding how DH's disability affects the status of the loan. Given the fact that the clock has been reset, that's your best avenue to explore.

Other than that, there are only three options:

1. Don't pay them and continue to deal with the harrasment (being fully aware of what the CA can and cannot do) until the statute does run out.

2. Acknowledge the loan and start paying them.

3. Run. Leave the country.

Sorry......but at the end of the day those are the options.

Cesca,

As I have mentioned to others, you may want to make nice with your collector (but make no mistake, to do this is to commisserate with the Devil) and send modest payments, if only 25 dollars a month. By doing this, the collector will have a difficult time referring the loan back to HRDC because you are taking steps to make a repayment of the loan.

Our fellow member put it quite succinctly: if we could all duck under the radar, we would have done it a long time ago. There is no underground railroad or, as soon-to-be-outgoing President Bush says, "You can run, but you cant hide". Of course, Bush was talking about terrorists. CA's are terrorists of a different kind.

If I may, I would suggest seeking a consolidation loan from a chartered bank. After all the loans total only $16,000 (a good chunk of change, but not as much as others) and your lender would probably roll in some of your credit card debt into the consolidation loan. It is a real and viable alternative and once you pay the collector, the calls will stop. You will feel a whole lot better and the game of cat and mouse between you and the CA will come to a grinding halt. Just a suggestion....

Ok so sending the letter was the wrong thing to do. And the clock has been reset to sero as of whenever they sign for it (today or tomorrow). :(

Ok so if we were to start paying a small amount - even if  a money order sent every month for $20 each month - that wont even touch their interest rate???  THey say that interest is either $2 per day or $1 per day depends on who we're talking to.

This could go on for years and we would never even touch the principle - this is why DH doesnt want to even start paying anything!!! Whats the point - he'll just paying for the rest of his life.

With his record as a discharged bankrupt, DH cant even think about asking any bank for any sort of loan - so again he says why bother?

He's already mad that sending the letter just reset the clock to zero!!!

Fortunately noone is taking our tax returns & GST away from us...yet.  We did lose the GST for the 12 months he was undischarged but they are now coming to us. And if we loose the GST to these stupid CA,  he will be very upset

Cesca

WE thought we were doing everything right. Now you're telling us we did everything wrong???

God we're gonna be in poverty for the rest of  our lives - I did NOT come to Canada to be in poverty!!!!! 

And I cant afford to go home. I dont want to go home - there's nothing at home.

I AM SO PISSED!!!

Cesca

Cesca,

You are quite right, a payment of $20.00 wll not cover the interest. Keep in mind that it is the gesture of goodwill and represents your willingness to settle the debt; more importantly, it establishes a payment history that will make it difficult for the CA to either refer your outstanding debt back to the lender OR to initiate civil proceedings against you (the latter will occur if the CA has a blanket permission from the lender to initiate civil proceedings against you.)

The modest payments to the CA are a temporary solution and are not meant to go on forever. The assumption is that while you are making these payments, you are also looking for avenues in which you can settle or pay the outstansding debts in full. For me, it took two years of modest payments until I was able to secure a consolidation loan to settle my outstanding student debts with the CA's.

As I said in my previous post, it is best to make nice with the CA. To ignore the CA in the hope that they will go away is childlike thinking. These "people" are maniacially focussed on one goal: debt recovery and they will do whatver is necessary to recover that debt. If this means constant phone calls, beratement and empty threats, so be it.

You mentioned that :

This could go on for years and we would never even touch the principle - this is why DH doesnt want to even start paying anything!!! Whats the point - he'll just paying for the rest of his life.

and

With his record as a discharged bankrupt, DH cant even think about asking any bank for any sort of loan - so again he says why bother?

Cesca: it sounds alot like DH does not want to deal with this problem. His lackadaisical attitude toward debt repayment is not going to help his cause. It is not enough to say "why bother" and "what is the use?" Agreed, student debt sucks; more precisely, recovery of student debt by a CA, sucks more. But here is the scoop: the CA's are not going to go away anytime soon and to ignore that monster invites far worse. My advice to you is make the modest payments with the CA and explore avenues of borrowing money to get these roaches off your back.

Lastly, you mentioned that you did not come to Canada to be in poverty. As a citizen, I take offense to this remark. If you dont like the way things are run, you are more than welcome to leave. Canada is not a charitable organization but what we do offer is unfettered access to social and economic opportunites likely not found in your country of origin. Of course the decision to leave or stay is yours; however, while you are in our country and while you are a landed immigrant, I would ask you to remember who your host is!

Cesca,

IT IS NOT AS BAD AS IT LOOKS!!

First.....who do you owe the 4K to? Is the 4K part of the secured or unsecured loan (ie held by HRDC or by the bank)? This is extremely important as it determines your options and more importantly how the CA's act.

Second....because DH is receiving money from the gov't it will be next to impossible for you to flee as I assume you have to provide your current address. My advice is as follows:

1. Change your bank. The bank can only remove money from an account if it is the same bank that holds your loan. I'm assuming your account is with Royal? Open an account from another bank and have your income deposited into that account. This will stop them from grabbing money from the account.

2. Send them partial payments. $20 a month. If your situation escalates with the CA, a proven history of partial payments will work in your favour. CA's cannot garnish your wages, take you to court, etc. They have to show the bank/HRDC that the debtor has made no attempt to deal with their debt. The bank/HRDC then has to make the call to escalate. It is a lot harder for the CA to prove non-compliance if they are getting payments.

3. Don't send cheques. Send money orders as cheques show your bank account number. Don't fill out any forms.  If they want information let them get it themselves. Don't talk to them on the phone. Get everything in writing starting with a copy of your entire file. They have to provide that to you. The more you know about your loan, the greater your power.

4. The CA will attempt to bully you. F**k them! Just keep sending those cheques.

"Lastly, you mentioned that you did not come to Canada to be in poverty. As a citizen, I take offense to this remark. If you dont like the way things are run, you are more than welcome to leave. Canada is not a charitable organization but what we do offer is unfettered access to social and economic opportunites likely not found in your country of origin. Of course the decision to leave or stay is yours; however, while you are in our country and while you are a landed immigrant, I would ask you to remember who your host is!"

(I cant figure out where the quote button is)

I did not mean to offend anyone by this statement.  That was not my intention. I am upset because the Canadian and Ontario government are doing nothing IMO to help a Canadian citizen who is having trouble. Thats all I meant.

On the other hand DH is not exactly helping himself either. And that is something that frustrates me as well. You are right in that DH seems to be avoiding his responsibilities - same thing the CA said. LOL I will advise of him of this payments scheme as a way to get the CA's off our backs  and that he can use the payments as proof to get a loan in a year or two. 

One of the reasons we are reluctant to change the bank account away from Royal is that DH has been there so long, he now has some nice features he has access to, such as deposit with cash back - which allows us to cash my pay cheque. Since my own bank always insists on waiting the 5 days for clearance. And no my employer does not do direct-credit.  

Should we start paying the small amount now or should we wait until the next CA contacts us? since we have asked the present CA to cease calling us.

Cesca

First.....who do you owe the 4K to? Is the 4K part of the secured or unsecured loan (ie held by HRDC or by the bank)? This is extremely important as it determines your options and more importantly how the CA's act."

As far as I am aware the $4000 is owed to the bank - Royal Bank. It was Royal Bank who told us that they were sending it to the collections agency.

What other options do we have?  How do the CA's act?

Cesca

And to just let you know - the cease/desist letter was signed for this morning at 0956 EDT

Cesca

Don't leave your rent money in that account.....they WILL take it guaranteed!!!

Partial payments will not help your credit rating or help you get a consolidation loan. It will only help as a temporary solution and to deter the CA from escalating. The second that loan went to collections, DH's credit rating was screwed. The only way to repair it is good credit and time.

Get your documentation/file first before you send any money.

Hey DH's credit rating was screwed when he went bankrupt anyway - which is why he doesn't really care. (that's his attitude)  He just wants the CA's off his back.

We can get the ODSP to switch to another account - and leave that account open just to cash my pay cheque - since the money goes in and out in 5 minutes, once every 2 weeks.

Fortunately the child tax benefit we get & the GST go to a different account.

Just had another call from the CA at 12.58 (3 hours after the letter was signed for). The same man asking for DH. He's not available - which is true right now as DH has gone to another doctors appt.  Asking me if I am passing his messages on. Yes I am. Do I know why DH is not returning the calls? No I dont (actually yes I do but he should be aware of why his clients are avoiding his calls). So I ask his name, business name and phone number. He gives them all up without hiding and says thank you ma'am and hangs up. He sounds tired. I must be doing a good job in frustrating him.

Nothing about acknowledging DH's letter. The letter was addressed to this same man personally. He should have read it by now.

Is he bound by the letter?   If the same man calls again tomorrow can we lay a complaint against him and the CA?

Cesca

Cesca,

Just a quick question. In yur previous posts you mentioned:

Flight is not an option - except to elsewhere in Ontario. DH will lose his ODSP if he leaves Ontario for more than 30 days.  It is our only source of income.

Yet in your last post, you mentioned

we are reluctant to change the bank account away from Royal is that DH has been there so long, he now has some nice features he has access to, such as deposit with cash back - which allows us to cash my pay cheque. Since my own bank always insists on waiting the 5 days for clearance. And no my employer does not do direct-credit.

If you are working Cesca, maybe you should think seriously about making modest payments to the CA on DH behalf. It sounds like you are a two income household.

Get the name of the person handling your file at the CA. Get her number and keep it handy. Draft a letter explaining your situation, that you cannot settle or pay the account in full but that you will make modest payments until you can secure a consolidation loan to address the outstanding debt. Also, make sure you are the one that is initiating contact with the CA. It gives the appearance that you are taking the initiative in settling this debt and that you are not deliberately avoiding the collector.

Believe me, Cesca, I played this game with the CA's. Both Pigeon and I can attest that this is the best solution for the time being. It will at least get the collectors off your back. Remember, CA's are a business, and as business people (I use that term looslely with CA's) they will see the value in getting something as oppossed to nothing.

Also, switch your bank. The nice features and unverified deposits you speak of will be utterly useless in the event that RBC pliiages your account. If DH gets government assistance, DH can make arrangements to deposit his payments into a bank of his choosing.

My thoughts and dime worth of advice.

If you are working Cesca, maybe you should think seriously about making modest payments to the CA on DH behalf. It sounds like you are a two income household.

True, the CA doesnt seem to know my name and even if DH is married or not. We may be a 2 income family but I am not working because I want to. I'm working because I have to. I work nights to save up to pay an immigration debt. I get paid $8 an hour - and everything I earn means DH gets money removed from his monthly income. For example. I earn roughly $600 net per month. DH would lose about $350 from his monthly income, which means that I am also supporting the family in paying the bills, buying food and clothes  etc etc. And I have been trying to put at least $150-$200 of my income every month into a savings account. It has been very difficult.

Once this debt is paid (and I hope this will be by Xmas or January) then I will have some "disposable income" to help DH out. But just not right now.  I still have not decided if I will keep working after my debt is paid, I half do want to and half dont. Its not a job that will go anywhere - although I am getting the "Canadian experience" that all employers seem to demand of new immigrants. I am not making excuses, but these are the facts.

As for the CA - Get the name of the person handling your file at the CA. Get her number and keep it handy - we already have his name & number.  *69 comes in very handy.

As for my getting involved with the CA. How would this affect my future credit rating?  I dont want this to be a negative stain on my credit record that I dont even have yet.

Cesca

Cesca,

Not to take the side of the CA, but what is the basis of your complaint against the CA? In contrast to other collectors, he actually sounded polite!

In my opinion, Cesca, DH sounds like he needs a little motivation. To be blunt, both his behaviour and current disposition infer that he really doesn't give a s***. You are not doing DH's cause justice if you continue to make excuses on his behalf to the CA or accept his explanation that "all is lost" and therefore no action is required.

You are quite correct in that you are frustrating the CA. Frustrate the CA now if you want, but you will not have a leg to stand on if the CA can demonstrate to the lender that collection of DH debt is impossible. At this point you are well on your way to strengthening the CA's case for referral back to DH's lender.

Listen, CA's dont care about situations, tight money or people on disability. Their pay is predicated on how much debt they can recover and they will do whatever possible to met their goals. Play nice with the CA but be an informed client....read the tips on this website, know your rights becuase the CA will try to take advantage of you. But for god sakes, don't stick your head in the sand and, moreover, tell your husband to deal with the situation instead of employeing you as a go between. Do you not think you deserve better? 

And that is the part that saddens me...DH is not acting like the equal partner in all this. Cesca, you are taking on ALL the burden because DH is letting you. This should be a partnership thing -- you are doing your part by working; he should be the member here on this forum seeking advice, and dealing with the CAs -- not YOU!

Show him this website, Cesca...Not only can we help with the practical matters, we can help him deal with the emotional crap. We've all been through it.

Poly

He (CA) was polite because I am not the debtor. DH has spoken to 2 people at the CA in 2 phone calls. Both times they went ballistic on him. One of them read DHs entire credit history out loud over the phone and to her colleagues - and DH heard others in the office laughing. What happened to privacy? This is why the main reason DH will not speak to them. He was humiliated.

OK so what will happen if the debt is referred back to the lender?  Do they take DH to court or do they give the debt to another CA?

Pigeon says making temporary payments wont help with a consolidated loan. So I was right, we will be paying this off forever - or at least the next 7 years, and thats if the CA accepts our payments. I've read on this web site that CA's sometimes dont accept payments and demand the full amount.

So if we make small payments for 7 years until the bankruptcy is removed from his credit report, then he can start to repair his credit. DH is not too worried about his credit. He pays everything now using money orders or cash. DH has even looked into a secured credit card but we dont even have the $1000 security deposit that most places ask for.  

And again if I was to start making these small payments on DH's behalf, how would this affect my future credit rating?

Some people on this forum have mentioned that they have family members screen the calls from the CAs for them. One person even had their 12 year old daughter screen the calls. I am not doing anything that noone else is doing.

Cesca

I think Poly is right: you and hubby are two different people. The sooner you seperate your finances, the better both of you will be.

First, I am pretty sure that they cannot freeze a pension.

Second, just in case, change banks, with one account for him and another for you. Forget about the perks or shop around for an institution that will give you the same.

Third, look for a job that pays better than 8 bucks an hour. Don't let people push you around because your from another country.  You have the same rights as any Canadian.

Cesca,

This is why the main reason DH will not speak to them. He was humiliated.

He is not speaking to them because he is humiliated. He is not speaking to them because he doesnt give a s***. He has no reason to speak to them because he has you as a go-between. Worse still, you are making excuses for his behaviour. Poly was right, this is a partnership and it sounds like your partner is not pulling his share.

Pigeon says making temporary payments wont help with a consolidated loan. So I was right, we will be paying this off forever - or at least the next 7 years, and thats if the CA accepts our payments. I've read on this web site that CA's sometimes dont accept payments and demand the full amount.

Pigeon was right, the payments wont help ypou with a consolidation loan. But the payments will keep the CA from escalating your file which may involve sending it back to the lender. If you make the modest payments, but do not seek other avenues that would enable you to repay the loan, then yes you will be paying the loan forever!

The CA must accept your payment. If the CA does not accept your payment, he may be in violation of HRDC directives or directives set by the lender for recovering the loan. Demanding the full amount is a scare tactic used by the CA's.

And again if I was to start making these small payments on DH's behalf, how would this affect my future credit rating?

The student loans do not involve you. THe CA's do not care where the money comes from, as long as a payment is made on the debtor's account. Therefore your credit rating would not be affected. This is why collectors will ask if any family of friends can help pay the debtor's debt.

Once again, Cesca, it really sound like old hubby dont give a s*** about the student loan; clearly he is erecting a wall of excuses as to why he cant deal with it on his own. Fair enough.

I would implore you to read this site carefully before sending out any written communication to the CA or dealing with them on the telephone. Forewarned is forearmed. Failing that, I would call enlist Johnny's assistance.

Good luck, friend!

Well I talked to DH today. He's agreed to move his account out of Royal Bank to CIBC where his second account is. But when I bring up the matter of paying a small amount he totally baulks at that.

"It wont even cover the interest. I wont pay them. Period." he said

I mentioned that if the CA did get a judgement against us it could hang around for 20 years or more (according to what I have read.) His income might be garnished - he says his disability wont be touched. I cannot find anything to verify this. He doesnt have any property so he cant get an liens right now.  And he says that if he went to court, he'll win the case coz he has proof he cannot pay. (currently 4 years of being on welfare & ODSP).

Can the CA attempt to take any money out of ANY Other accounts that DH has (with other banks - such as his CIBC account) or are they only allowed to raid the Royal Bank account?

I cant deny it - DH is sticking his head in the sand. I want to help him, I'm doing all I can to learn, but he doesn't want to listen. He' talks about when I get a credit card, I can add him a second card holder - No way Jose. I've been abl to prevent him adding me to his accounts. I'm certainly not gonna be adding him to mine.

I shall be starting another thread here so I start again and ask the questions I want to ask - and make sure that it doesn't get sidetracked off into a scrutiny of my marriage as this thread did.

Cesca

Why doesn't HE start a thread, Cesca? Give HIM the website address. He can get the info from the horses' mouths...it may help both of you.

Poly
(distant relation to Mr. Ed )

We're not scrutinizing your marriage.Your telling us your story and we are giving your our honest opinions. Would you prefer us to lie and say that what DH approach in dealing with the CA issues is the best course of action?

Look Cesca, I hate to stereotype, but DH has been on the dole for four years. In previous posts, you said that most of DH family was either on the dole or on disability. Do you not see a pattern here?

DH has been living off the system for four years (nothing wrong with that if he has a legitimate reason to do so). But c'mon, he is asking you to add himself as a second card holder if and when you obtain a credit card. He already ran up $40K in credit card debt and declared bankruptcy. Is this someone you would like as a secondary cardholder?  

You said you are working nights to pay off an immigration debt. As your husband and partner, has he offered to help you pay off this debt? After all, marriage, at least to me, is an equal partnership, both econmically and emotionally.

Lastly, you are his go-between with the CA's. Has he every thought of getting on the phone with the CA's and explaining his situation?Believe me, Cesca, the phonecalls from the CA will not stop and sooner or later they will clue in (if they haven't already) that DH is permanently "unavailable". You are not so much frustrating the CA as you are building a case against yourself; that is, if the CA can demonstrate non-compliance, you would run the risk of being subject to civil claim against you, which, if sucessfully argued, may result in DH disability and or welfare being garnished.  

I think you have to sit down and ask yourself some difficult questions and come to some difficult decisions. You can't do this alone. DH has to get into the game and take a modicum of responsibility for his plight. Until then, you will have to continue making excuses on DH behalf to nasty CA's and writing posts on this forum similiar to the ones above.

Good luck, friend.

I have to add to this because most of us have been through the hell...and what we are trying to say is that WE fought and WE argued and WE did everything in our power to make our lives better, regardless of the hell we've been through. And Cesca, we've been through HELL!!! And BACK!! Ask any of us!!! Read our stories!!! Money problems, health problems...we've been there.

But at least we tried. That's what we're saying. We didn't crawl into a hole and give up or make it our partners' problem. Either DH is severely depressed and unable to take action, or he feels that he is entitled to be taken care of due to his disability... making it your job.

Honey it sounds like you are enabling him and that scares me. You've been strong enough to leave your home country and and responsible enough get a job (and lucky...it's no mean feat considering the horror stories I've heard)...Now when does he act strong and responsible and take some of this burden off your shoulders? It'll kill you and you don't deserve this. You are supposed to be in this together.

If he really CAN'T deal with it, I can understand...but then he needs a different kind of help...

Poly

OK folks......let the woman breathe a bit here. This site isn't about marriage counselling, it's about dealing with debt.

Cesca, I apologize if we're coming on a bit strong. The only reason for it is that we know what will happen if DH continues to simply ignore this issue. DH has gotten himself in a situation where the playing field is not level and the options are limited. Every day he continues to ignore the problem the interest accumulates and another note is added to his CA file indicating his lack of effort with regards to dealing with his debt. His strategy with dealing with this has only one outcome and it ain't good.

Of course, you are right, Pigeon. I'll back off. We'll just alienate people when they need us the most.

Sorry, Cesca...

Poly

Listen Cesca, in our zeal to give you a realistic picture of the pitfalls of ignoring CA's, we may have overstepped some boundaries. For this I apologize.

The consequences in ignoring the CA's are real and they can profoundly affect a credit rating that, like most student debtors, looks like either a train wreck or an anchovy pizza. Neither is pretty.

Pigeon is certainly right in that DH's ignornace of the problem will only exacerbate it. This is a zero sum game your playing with the CA's. Believe me, they can truly make your life and those around you, miserable. CBCL is one of the worst you can deal with. In less than 18 months, CBCL conducted 8 checks on my credit with Equifax. If your not aware, a credit check conducted by anyone (including lenders) can be detrimental your credit rating. CBCL did this eight times and to say I am moderately displeased understates the case.

Like Pigeon says, DH is entering a situation where the playing field is lopsided, the deck is stacked and options are fairly limited. They are the least of desirable bedfellows; however, getting into bed with them, at least for a short while, is the only way you can keep them off of your back. In sum, play ball, but make sure that you know all of the rules of the game before you play (and pay!). Like most games, the opposing team (the CA's) wont tell you the ground rules and will go at great lengths to break the exisiting ones. Its up to you to be informed and this site is an excellent resource for getting you on that path.

Like I said, read this site, ask the questions or talk to Johnny. But don't just stand on the sidelines, hands in sleeves.

Good luck, friend!

Hey, I LIKE anchovies, Coffee!!!

Does that mean I'm a masochist?

Poly

Poly,

I thought you would be more of a cracker kind of a person!

Look Cesca, I hate to stereotype, but DH has been on the dole for four years. In previous posts, you said that most of DH family was either on the dole or on disability. Do you not see a pattern here? DH has been living off the system for four years (nothing wrong with that if he has a legitimate reason to do so). But c'mon, he is asking you to add himself as a second card holder if and when you obtain a credit card. He already ran up $40K in credit card debt and declared bankruptcy. Is this someone you would like as a secondary cardholder?

Someone is NOT reading my posts correctly.

DH is on a legitimate disability. IF you think he is on it for fake reasons, then  I wont be reading anything more of what you post. You havent been to hell and back. You obviously havent lived on $1000 a month for 2 adukts and a child. Do you have any idea how expensive diapers are???

And Disability is NOT the DOLE. How DARE you say that.

Its obvious I'm not getting any help here. I'll go and find my answers somewhere else.

I said I know DH is denying the situation.  I said that I was NOT going to put him on my Card when I get one. How stupid do you think I am???

Do you expect me to just walk away and leave him to rot??  We have a 2 year old child. I dont have any choice. I have to do what I can to help.

Cesca

Cesca, for what it's worth, in my opinion the people involved in this thread and the other one you started have been astonishingly heartless and judgemental.

Some of us have a great deal of sympathy, even empathy for what you are going through and would genuinely like to offer whatever help we can. And from my point of view at least, that doesn't mean taking a bunch of cheap shots at your husband for his condition or at you for your immigration status.

I think the people who have been taking you apart have been uncharacteristically sanctimonious. I don't know what's come over a group of people who are usually a little more human than they have been in their dialogues with you.

Cesca wrote: Noone has given me any real ideas for remaining out out of sight. And you are saying that we do nothing at all - dont answer the phone, dont write letters - for the next 6 years??   DH is not very happy about that all. Cesca

The time is actually 6 years minus 1. The minus one is because the government feels it needs at least a year to take someone to court before the acutal 6 year limitation rule is up.

About staying below the radar line, really I wouldn't sweat it, becasue I think that you are already there. Even if they do call, and you pick up the phone and they yell at your husband, there is not a lot they can do. His pension is untouchable. And you are not responsible for his previous debts. Just in case though, I would change acounts. Credit unions have a good reputation.  

cesca

sounds like people are forgetting the question you asked and are unable to give you any decent advice.  zafire is on the money though.  anothe thing to remembe is that 10 years after DH declared bankruptcy he can apply to inclue his remaining student loan debt included ( and no he does not have to go bankrupt again).  they make the whole student loan thing a nightmare to navigate.

i can relate to dh being frustrated to the point of wanting to screw it all and ignore it.  he's been through bankruptcy, his credit rating is shot, he's on disability and he's had to deal with a CA - he's been through quite a bit.  encourage him to get online and do some research.  print out some info for him to read so he can become aware of the situation and his rights.  i have no problem ducking a few phone calls as long as the time is being spent well, ie research and empowerment through knowledge.

i would recommend getting johnny involved though - he has the expertise to navigate the shark infested waters.  i understand that finances are tight for you two but try and work something out with him - it will be so worth it for the peace of mind he can bring you.

i wil try and dig up some info for you (if i can find it, my house is a disaster - we just moved) adn will be here to offer support if you need to talk

MOM - I have replied to your post on my other thread 

Thanks for the support.

Cesca

cesca

try http://www.bcpwa.org/pdf/action_canadastudent.pdf - www.bcpwa.org/pdf/action_canadastudent.pdf

the template is there , i hope it helps.  sorry it took so long but we just moved and everything is still a disaster.  hope things are going better for you and DH and that his situation improves.

good luck and keep me posted

UPDATE

Since we sent the cease and desist letter its been "all quiet
on the western front". LOL  We've not had a single
phone call in the last 2 weeks and only one letter from the
same CA, but from a different guy. I assume this means
that the new guy will start the calls again soon.
But now I have lots of ammunition to fend him off with.

Cesca