Just to add I was willing to pay was I could afford but that was refused.  I was required to pay more than half my take-home.  It's ironic I'm told by my trustee that part of what I pay them will go to my 3 student loan debtors anyway

 Did they happen to give you any advice that could help prevent you from filing such a potentially disasterous assignment? Take into consideration your FUTURE financial goals... and check out all of your options before taking this plunge.

 The vast majority of people who go bankrupt really do not have to do it. There are other ways to solve financial problems.

Well Johnny the state that my credit is in at this point and my current financial situation is such that there is really no downside for me to claiming bankruptcy so it's more just an option of when to do it and whether I should wait a while for a potential ruling on the BIA to change it from 10 years to 5 or less.

 is this your conclusion - or someone elses?

Johnny,

My conclusions.  Over the past few weeks I have had meetings with a credit/debt counsellor at the Credit Counselling Society here in BC and also with a bankruptcy trustee to discuss my options of either working out a five year plan to pay off my debt or else claiming bankruptcy.  Paying off the debt would be extremely difficult for me with my current income and considering the fact that I am going back to school next year, and as I have no assets at all and am fairly young I don't really see any big downside to claiming bankruptcy especially in the event that it might cover my SLs if the rules are changed.  I'm open to more suggestions tho...

Like leading a lamb to slaughter.

No offense.

Ferren,

Was that comment directed at me?  If so I'm not sure what you mean and as I said I am here cuz I'm asking for people's advice/suggestions/personal experiences in this matter so why not say exactly what you mean by "leading a lamb to slaughter".  I guess I feel I don't have many other choices since I can't actually afford to pay off any of my debt and I'd rather not just ignore it.

k2daho,

Tell me what you think declaring bankruptcy will do for you exactly. Give us all your preconceived notions about it and I or others here can address them one by one.

In the meantime, be sure to read polyhymnia61's story http://www.canadastudentdebt.ca/forum_posts.asp?TID=1733&KW - http://www.canadastudentdebt.ca/forum_posts.asp?TID=1733& ;KW  or hunter  http://www.canadastudentdebt.ca/forum_posts.asp?TID=362&KW - http://www.canadastudentdebt.ca/forum_posts.asp?TID=362& KW  plus do a message body search on bankruptcy on this website and read the faqs.

P.S who do you think the credit counselling society of B.C works for?

Ferren,

Well my mother actually declared bankruptcy a couple of years ago, and at the time I thought it was the worst decision in the world and was horrified thinking about the "stigma" attatched to it, but have since learned that it's not quite the terrible thing that we all think.

At first I thought that if I did file that I would have BANKRUPT tatooed on my foreheard for years and never get credit again, but the way I look at it now is this...I don't even WANT credit for the near future so that's my last concern, and from what I have heard (not from the trustee or anyone else trying to pressure me) is that so long as you have the income you can get credit no matter how many damn times you've claimed Bankruptcy. 

Also as I said before I have no assets so I won't actually "lose" anything financially by claiming bankruptcy, and I truly cannot afford to pay off what I owe anyhow (approx half is non-SL related).

Also just to clarify when I went to the CCS they actually strongly advised AGAINST bankruptcy and are encouraging me to try to alter my financial situation to somehow make the payments to get my debt dealt with w/o filing.

k2daho

check this if you are planning on returning to school in bc and still contemplating banko...

http://www.aved.gov.bc.ca/studentservices/student/finish/bankrupt/ - www.aved.gov.bc.ca/studentservices/student/finish/bankrupt/

"the federal government may impose an additional three year penalty from the date of discharge of student loan debt before you are be considered for funding again...."

one of the basic eligiblilty requirments for funding in bc is that you are not in default on your previous loans

http://www.aved.gov.bc.ca/studentservices/student/apply/eligible.basic.htm - www.aved.gov.bc.ca/studentservices/student/apply/eligible.ba sic.htm

please also check

http://www.aved.gov.bc.ca/studentservices/student/finish/repay/default.htm - www.aved.gov.bc.ca/studentservices/student/finish/repay/defa ult.htm

remember that bankruptcy costs $$$ (around 1500 when i looked into it a few months ago, and it does me no good whatsoever).  in my humble opinion if you have that kind of money look into the services of john leblanc at cfw - his rates are reasonable in comparison and he negotiates repayment plans that are manageable on a daily basis for many.  i would also postpone returning to school until you are on more stable financial ground since you will likely have to pay for school out of pocket. 

if you can get your loans reinstated at the bank and make them current (likely you will have to pay the interest that is in arrears and/or make your outstanding payments, as well as any fees associated with transferring your loan back to the bank) you may be able to reapply for funding to continue your education.  i have heard that some schools run a credit check prior to awarding any funding - so if you are banko or in default you will not receive any funding and you will be out the application fee.

im not trying to burst your bubble, i just want to make sure you do your homework and cover your rear on this one.  while banko might seem like a great idea at the time, remember that once you are discharged you will have collection agencies to contend with and you will have to wait until 10 years after your last period of study to include any student loan debt - meaning that by returning to school you will have reset the clock on your previous student loans, regardless of how you finance this next stint at school.  and you will have to wait 13 years to reapply for funding to go to school.

does it still sound like a good idea ?

I see the Charter Challenge is still moving with all the speed of a glacier on Quaaludes.  So a decision will be rendered in the fall.  No idea WHICH fall, though, right?  Since the court case itself was supposed to have been heard last November, and didnt actually get heard until the middle of June, I suspect a decision won't be made until next June. 

I had to go bankrupt in mid 2000.  It was then that I discovered to my horror about the 10 year rule.  So I still have 905 days left to serve in my debt sentence.  Fortunately for me, I am still in bankruptcy protection, thanks to a complication in my bankruptcy.  That protection will run out in March 2005.  So, between March 2005 and May 2007 I will have to try to figure out how to make payments on a 60,000+ dollar student loans on a salary of about 25,000.  Good thing I am single with no dependents. 

My own prediction is that if the challenge succeeds at  this level, it will be instantly appealed to the appeals court.  they, like the superior court, will hold a hearing a year for a few years, then we will have to wait for a year after the trial for a new decision.  By the time it gets to the Canadian Supreme Court, it will be 2010.  There will then be another round of annual preliminary hearings until the trial in 2014 and the final decision in 2015.

In short, I am not holding my breath. 

Anyone feel like accusing me of optimism?

Niagara_Man:

Good points!

2Laural:

I think I may have mis-spoke.  I may have misunderstood what I was asked.What I should have said was that the trustee did not think that there would be any problem with my being able to apply to have my student loans included in my bankruptcy once the 10 year rule expires.  I dont think thats what you mean by grandfathering.

Then again, he was wrong about my 5 months of retraining, which was funded by EIC and not by a student loan, would not reset the clock.  So maybe he was wrong here as well.

 Section 178 -1.g of the BIA is where you would focus on pertaining to this issue.

From what I have always understood, it is ten years since one has been a student, full or part time. The law doesn't care how you paid for the course, only that you took it.

Poly

The Trustee I spoke with at length told me that if I applied for bankruptcy right now (3 years out of school, mature student), I WOULD NOT be able to factor in my student loans down the road even if the ruling comes down to change the period from 10 to 5 years.  He also advised me to "wait it out" for a couple of years, send in little payments as I could, and hope that the law is changed by then.

If and when the law is changed to 5 years, I will then be able to declare bankruptcy on the whole thing (consumer + SL).  Right now, I could only go banko on the consumer debt, which would still leave me with approximately $65K of SL to contend with.  If it wasn't for the SL payments being so HIGH, I could manage the consumer debt with no problem.

Can't win either way, I'm just crossing my fingers --- could someone please explain a little more about their being informed they COULD apply retroactively to include their student loans in their bankruptcy?  I was told the opposite.

 If this is the advice bankruptcy people are giving ... well.

 What kind of counseling is that? And ... how can you determine in time that you will need to file for bankruptcy? 

 Don't think bankruptcy is going to save you from the debt. If a person is gainfully employed, and is assessed by the powers that be as being able to pay, then why don't bankruptcy administrations tell this to people???? They know it. They just don't "want" to reveal it.

 They think that the system that put the boots to them back in 1997 is going to open the door once again.

 Staretz,

 If a trustee has "advised" you to wait it out ... what would happen if there is something that could have been done in the meantime?

 Bankruptcy people DO NOT educate people how to manage or cope on their own. They are called "credit counselors", and the same goes for these self-proclaimed "non-profit" credit counseling groups. If they are giving you advice like this, what will that say when your time comes - and the problem is not only still there - but 20 times worse? They sell their products of insolvency. This is their business. It is easier to simply bankrupt a person because it takes less time and effort - but costly.

 Let me ask you this question:

 1) What will happen if the government or lending sector(s) opose your discharge from the student loans? 

 The bankruptcy person did't tell you about this at all, did they? Of course not.

 Staretz, the very advice you have received is on the "top 10" list of reasons why people suffer. ot what you want to hear, but it is the truth.

I know :(

That is the conclusion I have come to.  Once I emerge from protection, I will make what payments I can and hope for the best.  At least I have a job and two months full salary in the bank.  What if they oppose?  Thats what I wonder about.  maybe i will give you a call in the summer :/

Same here, Hunter, but in all fairness, they really didn't think there was anything to counsel me on. They knew my story, how the CIBC dicked me around, saw my financial state and decided that there was little they could say...I mean, all I had were my student loans and a Visa in good standing. They looked at my budget, saw that I had no assets, knew there was little I could cut back on (I mean, sleeping on your mum's couch at the age of 40 is about as lean and mean as one can get)...and knew the issues. They just had little or no advice for me; and were limited by their product offerings...they just provided a lot of empathy really.

We need more Johnny's really...Ever think of franchising the business, Mr. Leblanc??

Poly

Hi Laural, Im wondering if you may have found anymore information on this subject.

Well, according to the Office of the Superintendent of Bankruptcy (the District Assistant Superintendent), it does make a difference who paid for the course.

Unfortunately, there is not a lot of case law reported on the subject as yet, but I will keep looking.

Thanks

J

Well, I will wait it out and pay what I can.  If, come June 28 2007, hrdc and rbc oppose the discharge, I'll keep paying until the day I die.  I realise that sounds depressing and maudlin, but that is what I am resigned to.  Who knos?  maybe I will build up enough skills on my own that I will eventually be able to make the payments off.  Everything I buy I buy by cash or debit card.  Or I do without.

 Get used to it.

 The decision, whenever it will be drawn, is going to be an interesting one, indeed.

 The Crown is not going to let the same things happen that occured in 1994-1997. That is a fact.

 Johnny

 Certainly ...

  http://temagami.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/28112003/n3.shtml - http://temagami.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/28112003/n3.shtml

 Johnny

Thanks for the link, Johnny!  I read the article, and it certainly is informative.  However, I'm still not sure what it is that you feel the Crown Attorneys won't permit to happen again ..... a spate of bankruptcies?  The dollar amount of bankruptcies?  Just what is it that the Crown Attorneys are trying to avoid?

Again, sorry I don't seem to be getting this through my brain ...

I would imagine there would be a sharp rise if the provisions are overturned ---- but only initially.  If they change the rules to something more reasonable, THEN everyone can turn their energies toward the matters they should be concentrating on:  how to avoid this nightmare for future students!!!  (reinstitute federal funding losses to universities to decrease tuition, bring back the federal and provincial bursary systems, etc.). (sigh)  Or am I just dreaming?

By the way, what are the odds we'll have an answer on this within this month or the next as promised?

Thats what I am thinking.  there will be an initial spike.   I would love to see some energy focussing on avoiding the nightmare for future students.  Maybe some more pressure is needed on HRDC to consider it.  Give them some ideas at least.  It may be a dream, but it is a good dream. 

As for odds on getting a decision by the end of next month?  Not very good, in my cynical opinion.  I am willing to be cautiously optimistic but thats about it.

 Wantout,

 You are welcome.

 The term "bankruptcy" is a word that the CSLP, or any "serious" lender does not appreciate. The abuse of bankruptcy was incredibly high in those days. The Crown had enough as you can read in the article. 

 As for the challenge, my lips are sealed. I am not going to comment on it. All I will say is that those who are banking their hopes on bankruptcy for student loans, it is time to start thinking of a different approach to fixing problems UNLESS you are disabled, unemployable in the eyes of the Crown and bench, medically or physically disabled, etc.etc.etc. The Crown can opose the discharge - and they do it in nearly every case. If the Crown is satisfied that a bankrupt qualifies for discharge, then it would be good news. The trick is to convince the Crown that you should be discharged.

 The bankruptcy challenge is asking for a reduction in limitations from 10 years to 5 from the date a bankrupt has ceased to be a full or part-time student. That is all fine and dandy. No one can tell the Crown that they cannot opose the discharge, or that they should grant discharge JUST because the individual filed for insolvency. If the Crown doesn't want to discharge, they will not do so.

Tuition is an order of magnitude higher than it was 20 years ago.  A university education is now just a plaything of the rich and/or talented.  If you can't pay up front through scholarships or family income, then be prepared for a lifetime of paying back student loans.  Those of us who went to university in the 80s and 90s were caught in an historical anomaly.

But its over now.  The party is over and the candyman's gone.  I would like to see the prohibition reduced from 10 to 5, and I would like to see debt reduction and interest relief actually apply to the people who need it. 

Not for myself, mind you, but for the people in even worse shape than I am.  After all, even though I am legally blind, I am gainfully employed.  So what if I can't afford the payments?  That doesnt matter, as far as HRDC and Student Loans are concerned.  and thats just the way it is.

Sounds like you and I have a lot in common, Hunter2. Like you it took me 5 years to complete my degree and, because I was/am a single parent, I had to borrow more in order to do it. It took me about a year to find work after graduation (in 1997) - until then I was on welfare and not in a position to make payments on my loans. So... they went to collection. Once I was working I was able to negotiate a monthly payment that wouldn't force us on to the streets, but that payment barely touched the monthly interest accrued. In fact, I've never been able to make a payment that touched the principle. So the debt (principle+accruing interest) continues to grow and grow. If I continue on this path I suspect that my debt will double in no time... maybe 10 years? Maybe less?!! Absolutely scary and depressing.

I had heard about the Charter Challenge long before I joined this forum and my belief that its success would "be my salvation" was helping to keep me sane. There was a light at the end of the tunnel!! One day this burden would be lifted!! (can you say haleluyah!) Finding this forum has helped me enormously - particularly in my dealings with the CAs - but reading comments stating that even if the Challenge is successful we will never be discharged from our Crown debt has really crushed me. I will be saddled with this debt for the rest of my life.

Back when I was in school I remember taking the responsibility of these loans very seriously. I knew that if it weren't for student loans I would never have been able to pursue post-secondary education. Since graduation I've done my best to uphold my responsibility by making monthly payments that I could aford... but this has been at a great deal of personal and family expence. Yes, I am responsible for my debt. If I had known that I would be in this financial position before I took out my student loans would I have done it? I just don't know the answer to that question - both "yes" and "no" come readily to my lips! What I do know is that I'm tired of being "responsible"!! I want out!!! If I could successfully claim bankruptcy tomorrow I would.

Where is the hope? The CAs are working with me right now, but they'll be hounding me again in the future. Is that my financial future... dealing with CAs?? What a drag. Johnny... I hear you... the Crown is unlikely to grant a discharge. While I'm grateful for the knowledge and advice you provide the group, this is one piece of knowledge I was not happy to learn.

Tangotori (feeling rather hopeless)

 Hunter 2 qand Tangatori,

 I read your posts above and wonder to myself why it is that these real bankruptcy issues and arguments render you hopeless. You, Tang, (and you too Hunter2), there is no reason to feel hopeless. This feeling is not going to make it any better. It is bad enough toting the burden of debt around.

 Look for a way! ..And not a way out.

 Think of ways to cope and manage it. Then, you will find that it really isn't all that bad - even though the cost of the education has been questionable. If something comes about that you cannot handle, or are recieving pressure form an offending sector, come to me and I will protect you. Don't think that you are prone to a life of financial bondage, opression, and stress because it will be JUST that if you give up and surrender yourself - and your self-esteem.

 Listen to how Hunter has progressed. Talk to Hunter. She is living proof that positive focus, accepting the challenge and not willing to accept defeat, and thew drive to move forward will solve these things.

 It is not your fault that the cost is so high. The fault is in those who are responsible for the increase in cost to astronomical proportions. Who might that be? The collecges and Universities are the ones who get paid. I think that it is time to make a shift in challenges onthis siter and let's look at the ROOT problem(s). Let's talk about collecges and universities.

Why is it so damn expensive to obtain a classroom and book education of some category when a person could conceivably obtain that same education by spending a a buck-fifty in late charges at the local library?

 Let's raise some arguments to focus on the root problems. Then, you will see what you are really fighting rather than walking through the thick fog not knowing who or what you will run into.

I gotta say, I am feeling Hunter2 on this one ..... Johnny, I hear what you're saying, as well, but it seems to me that bankruptcy is a very viable option for SOME people.  People are discharged in bankruptcy without having a life-threatening or permanent disability all the time.  In addition, it is true that the Crown Attorney can oppose a discharge (as can any debtor), however that opposition doesn't automatically guarantee that the discharge will not occur.  The person claiming bankruptcy also has a Trustee presenting their side of the story, and ultimately it is up to the judge what happens in the end.

Some of us are looking at bankruptcy as a last resort, having tried EVERYTHING else and getting nowhere, staring down the road of years and years of trying desperately to pay off a loan which will never be paid off because the payments aren't touching the principle.  Bankruptcy is in the legislation in the first place as a last resort, for everyone but students.  Hardly seems fair to punish people for the rest of their lives for trying to better the lives of themselves and their children.

I myself worked very, very hard to get my undergraduate and graduate degrees as a single parent, while working part-time at whatever I could find.  Now I seem to have less money available for food and bills than I had as a student.  There's something wrong with that.

I too had every intention of paying off my student loans, as I appreciate the opportunity to attend university at all.  However, I didn't realize the size of the payments and the unavailability of any alternatives.

As has been pointed out in this forum in the past, the end result of this problem is going to be that only the children of rich people will be able to go to university.  Merit, talent, and personal suitability will no longer be of importance.  Social stratification is going to become very pronounced, just the way it used to be some 75 years ago.

 I never said bankruptcy isn't for anyone. There are times when it is necessary.

 You have read but not truly understood what my message was.

 Wantout, you wrote:

 "Some of us are looking at bankruptcy as a last resort, having tried EVERYTHING else and getting nowhere, staring down the road of years and years of trying desperately to pay off a loan which will never be paid off because the payments aren't touching the principle.  Bankruptcy is in the legislation in the first place as a last resort, for everyone but students.  Hardly seems fair to punish people for the rest of their lives for trying to better the lives of themselves and their children."

 You haven't tried everything else. Bankruptcy is a last resort, yes. How do you know that your debt cannot be reduced in time to come WITHOUT having to utilize bankruptcy. What I do for people has nothing to do with bankruptcy and it proves to be far more effective in solving the problems - and achieving financial wellness. Bankrupt people are those who truly cannot make payments toward debt. Bottom line. If you are unable to make any payment towards the debt, then by all means.

Many people go bankrupt with the notion that it is an exit strategy from having to pay debt thus giving them an open window to avoid responsibility. Many who have, and still do exhibit this pattern of behavior have successfully dodged the system outside of student loans (meaning consumer and commercial debt). How can a bankruptcy trustee bankrupt someone who is not bankrupt??? They do it all the time! The bankruptcy trustee is there for one purpose and that is to bankrupt people. Not to teach them how to avoid it and salvage any hope of recovery OUTSIDE of a lengthy- to a lifetime of further fiancial hardship. This is one of my major arguments about that system.

 My apologies to both of you. My opinions are just opinions and we all have the right to excercise them. I did not mean to offend either of you. I had meant to rationalize - and look beyond a problem to see an even greater one.

 Johnny  

Oh my gosh, Johnny!  You certainly didn't offend me, and no apologies are necessary for stating one's opinion!!  I guess I misread your statement, although as I said I can certainly see your point as well.  I meant no offense to you, either, and just wanted to debate the issue a bit.

I can just also certainly commiserate with Hunter2, when it feels like you're running out of options .... as Hunter2 said, it is depressing to hear that the one avenue you thought you might have left, bankruptcy, may not at least solve part of problem.

And you are absolutely right --- I haven't tried everything.  Almost everything, though ..... you are about the only person I haven't contacted in trying to resolve this mess.  Just don't have your fee right now, or believe me I'd be next in line!!!   You seem to have helped a lot of people in this forum.

 Want out,

 When you "want in", you let me know and I will show you how things can be dealt with without bankruptcy. Then you will truly see when the time is right.  The fees will be small ... pennies in comparison to what bankruptcy will cost you. I promise.

 I do understand where you are coming from, indeed. I know it is not easy dealing with the weight and stresses of debt burden. If you ever want to talk things over, by all means call me. I would love to share a discussion with you.

 Johnny

I learned of your website on an American student loan webpage.

Respectfully to brothers in the north, it is so much worse for us down here in America. Don't believe what you read or hear about in our media. I prey that you win your charter challenge so that maybe it will shame our politicians in America. I say this to put you in awares that the same forces that wiped out our bankruptcy options are without a doubt at work up there in your country. The same big corporations are no doubt lobbying for the same concessions. I have garnishments, forced examinations, calls to my remaining friends, firings from employment due to multiple student loan garnishments, tax return captures, and worse public pillarying than a murderer. I got a 25% penalty immediately upon default. I get about 12% interest compouding. I get exorbinant collection fees, attorney fees, and assorted fees added to principal, and then compounded with interest as well. I expect the debt to get to a million dollars within 5 years. Some of my debt is already older than many of you, I suspect. Well over 20 years ago is when I first went to school. I foolishly, foolishly went to an unaccredited graduate school. If I had not done that I probably would have been ok. I get a 10% administrative garnishment of wages from government student loans, and 25% from court orders for the private ones. When I get work, and it is usually something very menial, which I am not above doing, it leaves very little. I get this work by lying on applications to cover my past. My education does not qualify me for higher jobs and interferes with getting lower jobs.  I was fired by an employer because I have 2 student loan garnishment from creditors. They are allowed to do this. They can't discriminate on the basis of one garnishment, but two is okay. Yes, I move frequently. I am now over 50 years old, most of my expected working life is over. What drastic change is going to happen in my income? When I go on social security, they will garnish that, too. Yes, it is allowed.

If I die tomorrow, it does not end for the private student loans that I have-- my estate and heirs would thus be harassed for the scraps of my bones. I don't have any estate to matter, but I am just saying that even death is not a release for me. Meanwhile, in my country the self same corporations and municipalities are allowed to file bankruptcy on their debts. Down here you have schools that are not even accredited enough to get you a license in the field that you are going into debt for. Most jobs here do credit checks which always pull up student loan defaults. So if your school did not qualify you to work in the intended field, you may have trouble with others because of the default. Down here, some State governments prevent you from getting contractor's license, real estate sales licenses, nursing licenses, teaching licenses and in some places driver's licenses if you have defaulted student loans. That is not uniform yet, but it is a growing trend. Many people think that even imprisonment is not far off. We already do that for child support violators (I don't know if they do that in other countries already or not.) and before that they started with various license revokation like they are begining to do with student loans.

Do not allow your children to go through this.  You are far more organized than your student loan debtors to the south. Fight while you can! And no, although I am extremely unhappy, I content myself with telling as many people as I can in the US about the state of the law.

Good Luck to all student loan debt prisoners.

Blimey, I stand corrected. I was under the impression that the laws gave you more protection in the US...Sorry...

You may have US student loans, but many members here live in the US and may face their collection agents and laws...your input is quite valuable...If it's any consolation, you can probably help somebody here...

Poly

polyhymnia61, you guys up there are a beacon of hope. I don't know if you know how much your organization means to many of your counterparts down here. I know you face problems from a Canadian perspective just as I do. I know how much the misery of student loan debt affects people on the bottom of the economy.   

Stay together, and win. When you win, you will win for the world.  And if it helps at all, feel free to ask your politicians if they really want to echo the Bush administration's policies (Bush 1 eliminated the statute of limitations.)

Hey debtprison:  I too am disappointed to learn that the U.S. is worse for student loan nightmares ---- I thought the stats were better down there?  There seems to be much less defaulting going on, but I wonder if that's just a matter of how they are counted?

For example, here in Canada every so often a province will laud themselves for having a certain percentage lower on their Employment Insurance welfare rolls, and that somehow this equates to more people being employed.  The reality is that every year a large group of people just runs out of EI benefits, and therefore end up on the welfare (social assistance) rolls instead.  As I said, it's all in how these numbers are counted and the spin put on them ....

In solidarity ....

Thanks for your kind words. Isn't it a shame that two great countries have making life miserable for student loan defaulters in common. Which is worse? Who cares? How about a competition over the reverse?

One thing a lot of us have had almost nil success in getting into the media is the fact that the US has a system of completely non-government backed student loans, so called alternative loans, that have none of the government loan regulation regarding forebearance and rehabilitations. Yet these loans are protected from bankruptcy just like the government loans. They are based on the (past tense) good credit of the borrower. We can debate until the cows come home on how fair the government based protections are in reality, but think about how bad things are without at least the paper rules. (Well, I guess about as bad as for Canadians from this message board.)

I guess this is the same twisted fact that keeps Canadians from filing bankruptcy for their loans in the U.S.   The U.S. bankruptcy laws applied non-dischargeability to just about any loan if they can find an educational purpose.

As you probably know, in Canada 10 years have to have elapsed (following the last date of enrolment in school) before bankruptcy can be used to discharge student loans.  What's the rule in the U.S.?  Can you go banko on student loans EVER?  (just wondering .... )

O great!

With this talk of an election in the air thanks to the sponsorship scandal, I wonder if it will be another excuse to delay the decision even further.

 If the government has anchored a lien against your income tax, they will continue to seize those money until you no longer owe the debt.

 If you are suffering from hardhsip, you will not be able to repay the student loan any time in the near or distant future,  and you are able to clearly demonstrate that everything you have done was in good faith, then you have a chance for discharge.

 The challenge is arguing the 10 year limitation period re bankruptcy/section 178. If the decision comes in and they reduce it to 5 years (or any number for that matter), that doesn't mean that student loans will be "automatically" discharged when someone a) files an assignment into insolveny after the fact, and; b) appeals to have the debt discharged by motioning a section 178 after a previous failed bankruptcy.

 Remember, the Crown will opose a discharge, and force an examination to determine the bankrupt's:

 a) true intent (reasons for filing bankruptcy)

 b) financial condition and position

 c) potential to locate employment given the degree of education received

 d) consumer debt level, and if the bankrupt included ONLY student loans

 e) any medical or disability issues that would impinge on one's ability to pay - or hold permanent employment.

 Lastly, if the Crown has confiscated your income tax rebates while you are in default, and still indebted to them, tou will not be able to seek retroactive reimbursment.

Johnny wrote:    Hunter 2 qand Tangatori,  I read your posts above and wonder to myself why it is that these real bankruptcy issues and arguments render you hopeless. You, Tang, (and you too Hunter2), there is no reason to feel hopeless. This feeling is not going to make it any better. It is bad enough toting the burden of debt around.  Look for a way! ..And not a way out.  Think of ways to cope and manage it. Then, you will find that it really isn't all that bad - even though the cost of the education has been questionable. If something comes about that you cannot handle, or are recieving pressure form an offending sector, come to me and I will protect you. Don't think that you are prone to a life of financial bondage, opression, and stress because it will be JUST that if you give up and surrender yourself - and your self-esteem.  Listen to how Hunter has progressed. Talk to Hunter. She is living proof that positive focus, accepting the challenge and not willing to accept defeat, and thew drive to move forward will solve these things.  It is not your fault that the cost is so high. The fault is in those who are responsible for the increase in cost to astronomical proportions. Who might that be? The collecges and Universities are the ones who get paid. I think that it is time to make a shift in challenges onthis siter and let's look at the ROOT problem(s). Let's talk about collecges and universities. Why is it so damn expensive to obtain a classroom and book education of some category when a person could conceivably obtain that same education by spending a a buck-fifty in late charges at the local library?  Let's raise some arguments to focus on the root problems. Then, you will see what you are really fighting rather than walking through the thick fog not knowing who or what you will run into.

Wanna move down here and help us out?

 debtprison,

 I do not need to move "down there" to help you. I can simply do it from "up here". I don't need to be in your locale to help you. I help people and solve crisis for them while they are several thousand miles away.

 It is very convenient for people.

I can vouch for that!!!

Poly

 Hunter,

 Thank you so much for your kind words.  I am speechless.

 I do what I do because of how it improves a person's life - and gives them the freedom and happiness that is deserved. We, as people, have that right to be be happy, aware, and well. 

 debtprison,

 I do not need to move "down there" to help you. I can simply do it from "up here". I don't need to be in your locale to help you. I help people and solve crisis for them while they are several thousand miles away.

 It is very convenient for people.

I've had an awful lot of people try and get nowhere-- when I've had some work to pay. Several lawyers, countless "debt counselors," they all turned tail when they saw what they were really getting into with the non-government based student loan operatives (which No one is covering down here in the press.) I offered at one point twice what they would have gotten per month in garnishment, but they wouldn't take it. The last "professional" shook his head and said that I was right, that they actually negotiated with higher and higher amounts completely oblivious to reality and  fluctuating income and fluctuating health. Currently, I don't have any money to work with, so I actually can't negotiate anything. The debt is simply vast in proportion to any expected or actual income and it grows with interest, fees, fines, collections and all added to the already large principle. That is their goal, they don't want it to be paid.

 I understand your skepticism. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I have seen this.

 Lawyers do not deal with financial wellness, sustainability, or counseling of this nature. Your traqdional "debt couselors" in the USA are nothing more than "debt poolers", which are the same as those here in Canada riding the coat tails of a non-profit or not-for-profit business banner. These groups are nothing more than effective collection agencies. They do not counsel you like the title of their business says. Rather they take a monthly payment from you, force you to swim in their debt pool, and collect 25% or more of what you pay in and try to tell you that your creditors are the ones paying them for your misery.

 Debt Prison, there is no one around that does exactly what I do. The only ones that can do it are the ones that I train to do it.

 Best of luck. I hope things work out for you down there. Just stay away from lawyers inthis regard. Unless there isa law broken and you can prove it, a lawyer will serve absoutely no purpose to you in reference to student loan problems. The same goes for debt poolers (your credit counselors) down there.

 Johnny  

Johnny,

If you are truly helping people like people are saying, then I have nothing but respect for you or anyone that is really trying.

Although I am at the far end of the bell curve situation wise, I am not solely concerned with myself. I believe that political changes are necessary and that history shows cycles to the way societies treat the insolvent. I am hoping we are seeing a trough and that some progessiveness will return sooner rather than later.