I was asking on my previous thread what would happen of the CA did get a judgment against DH. Noone answered me. Here's what I found.

Before obtaining a court judgment, a bill collector generally has only one way of getting paid: demand payment. This is done with calls and letters. However, once the collector (or creditor) sues you and gets a judgment, the law allows it to take further steps to collect the debt. If you have a job, the collector may try to garnish up to 25% of your net wages. The collector may also try to seize bank or other deposit accounts you have. If you own real property, the collector may record a lien against it, which will have to be paid when you sell or refinance your property. Even if you're not currently working or have no property, the judgment won't disappear. Depending on the state, court judgments can last up to 20 years, and in many states, can be renewed for years beyond that.

What proof or law is there that the judgment will not affect DH's disability? What proof is there that the CA will not come after my wages?  How long can the judgment be allowed to stay in place in Canada? How will it affect DH's future credit rating?

We have sent a cease and desist letter to the CA. It was probably the wrong thing to do but I did not find this forum in time. Can I make small payments (after I've finished paying my own debt) to the CA on DH's behalf, even after sending the letter, or do I have to wait for the debt to go back to the bank or to another CA? 

A cease and desist letter to a CA will not detract them from recovering an outstanding student loan.

Is a cease/desist letter legal in Ontario or does the CA have the right to ignore them and continue trying to collect?

To beat the statutes, you should not only be judgment-proof, you should be service-proof.

If we cant stay below the radar, how do we proof ourselves against judgment and service?  I assume we can prevent judgement by making small payments. What is the service? Is that being served a summons for court?

My only advice would be to find out more information regarding how DH's disability affects the status of the loan. Given the fact that the clock has been reset, that's your best avenue to explore.

How do we explore this? What questions do I need to ask?

First.....who do you owe the 4K to? Is the 4K part of the secured or unsecured loan (ie held by HRDC or by the bank)? This is extremely important as it determines your options and more importantly how the CA's act. [QUOTE] The bank holds this portion of the SL. What are our options? [QUOTE]I would implore you to read this site carefully before sending out any written communication to the CA or dealing with them on the telephone. Forewarned is forearmed. Failing that, I would call enlist Johnny's assistance.

Too late - we already sent written communication to the CA. I'd like to have some idea of what to expect now.

I know these are a lot of questions, but they were not answered on my previous thread, so I am asking them here.

Thanks for any help and advice you can give.

Cesca

 Cesca,

 First, you are quoting some regulatatory manual regarding the execution process and enforcement of debt in the USA.

 Your quote:

Posted: 28/October/2004 at 12:44am | IP Logged	http://www.canadastudentdebt.ca/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=10073&TPN=1">

I was asking on my previous thread what would happen of the CA did get a judgment against DH. Noone answered me. Here's what I found.

DH is shortform for Dear Hubby I believe...Check out the "new SL and questions" subject heading just below this one Johnny.

Poly

I meant "new with SL debt and questions..."

Time for me morning cwoffee!!

Poly

Yes I was quoting the States because I cant find anything similar about Canada.

Ok 15 years for a judgement in Canada  - thank you.

DH means Dear Hubby - so that I am not identifying him by name. Its  standard shorthand used on message boards and in chat rooms.

Can Johhny answer my other questions?

How safe is a ODSP pension from garnishment?

IS a cease/desist letter legal in Ontario or do the CA's routinely ignore them?

Can I make small payments (after I've finished paying my own debt) to the CA on DH's behalf, even after sending  a cease/desist letter, or do I have to wait for the debt to go back to the bank or to another CA? 

Answers would be appreciated, thanks

Cesca

 Cesca,

 I was referring to the percentage of garnishment when I mentioned "15". The limitation period for judgments varies. For instance, in Ontario, there are no such limitation periods. Once a judgment is registed, it is there to stay. In Nova Scotia, it is 20 years. In Alberta, it is 10 years, Etc.

  Your pension is safe from seizure or attachment. Now, if you owe an EI Overpayment or Tax debt, that is different.

 As for the cease and desist letter, collection agencies will routinely ignore them. It is perfectly legal to issue one, but if the agency finds no fault in their dealings with you, they can ignore it. You see, this is a common occurence. Many people do not like to deal with collectors so they issue these types of letters. Collection agencies do not have to stop calling you just becuase you do not want to talk or deal with them. There has to be legitimate reasons - and some form of complaint that holds merit in order for it to be addressed properly. Even then, the most that would happenis your file would be transferred to a different colelctor and tyhe calls would resume. 

 Your other question ... "Can I make small payments (after I've finished paying my own debt) to the CA on DH's behalf, even after sending  a cease/desist letter, or do I have to wait for the debt to go back to the bank or to another CA?"

 I don't see why not. A cease and desist letter is not somethign that would cause an agency to "lose" an account unless there were serious complaints attached to it.

 Johnny

Hi Cesca,

I'll leave the majority of the questions to others with more knowledge but I think I can field the following:

Too late - we already sent written communication to the CA. I'd like to have some idea of what to expect now.

The CA will not go away. The only time a CA will ever back off is when a complaint is lodged to either the bank or HRDC about their tactics and even then only when it can be shown that the CA is in direct contravention of the rules.

Unfortunately, you're only at phase 1 (irritating phone calls). Here is a quick list of the following elements of phase 1 that you may go through: calls at work, calls to other family members, ultimatums for complete payment, calls from the "supervisor" (generally not really the supervisor...just another tactic), discussions about getting a bank loan to pay the debt, discussions about getting money from family and friends, letters from lawyers saying that the collection agency will take you to court. I don't think I missed anything.........can anyone else think of a phase 1 tactic.

Phase 1 is really irritating but relatively harmless. The whole purpose of phase 1 is firstly to try and intimidate you and secondly to build up your file. Building up your file allows the CA to create the arguement that you are not attempting to pay back the loan in good faith. Phase 1 can go on forever. I myself was in phase 1 for 4 years. The CA that I dealt with transferred my file to a different agent every six months. So every six months the phone calls would start up again. I just kept sending payments. It is very hard for a CA to escalate to Phase 2 if you are paying them.

The two most important things to remember about Phase 1 is that many of the tactics used by the CA's are in direct contravention of the rules that regulate their industry (for more information on this check out the administrator's postings). Know your rights! If the CA breaks the rules, send a letter to them and a letter to the bank outlining the contravention. Secondly, stay calm. The CA will try and pick a fight....

Which brings us to Phase 2. I myself never went to phase 2 but there are others on this site who have dealt with this. Phase 2 occurs when the CA sends the debt back to the bank and has shown that they have pursued all avenues to obtain repayment without success. At this point, the bank may pursue civil action in the form of litigation. Even if this occurs, there are strict guidelines with regards to how much money the courts will make DH pay monthly. The thing to remember about Phase 2 is that the CA does not want to have to go back to the bank and explain to the bank that they failed to obtain repayment. It makes them look bad.

Hope that helps.

Listen Cesca, in our zeal to give you a realistic picture of the pitfalls of ignoring CA's, we may have overstepped some boundaries. For this I apologize.

The consequences in ignoring the CA's are real and they can profoundly affect a credit rating that, like most student debtors, looks like either a train wreck or an anchovy pizza. Neither is pretty.

Pigeon is certainly right in that DH's ignornace of the problem will only exacerbate it. This is a zero sum game your playing with the CA's. Believe me, they can truly make your life and those around you, miserable. CBCL is one of the worst you can deal with. In less than 18 months, CBCL conducted 8 checks on my credit with Equifax. If your not aware, a credit check conducted by anyone (including lenders) can be detrimental your credit rating. CBCL did this eight times and to say I am moderately displeased understates the case.

Like Pigeon says, DH is entering a situation where the playing field is lopsided, the deck is stacked and options are fairly limited. They are the least of desirable bedfellows; however, getting into bed with them, at least for a short while, is the only way you can keep them off of your back. In sum, play ball, but make sure that you know all of the rules of the game before you play (and pay!). Like most games, the opposing team (the CA's) wont tell you the ground rules and will go at great lengths to break the exisiting ones. Its up to you to be informed and this site is an excellent resource for getting you on that path.

Like I said, read this site, ask the questions or talk to Johnny. But don't just stand on the sidelines, hands in sleeves.

Good luck, friend!

Have said all I want to on my other thread.

we cant afford to speak to Johnny, unless he's willing to make a deal. IF he is, can he email me at

mailto:cesca_nz@yahoo.com - cesca_nz@yahoo.com

Thanks

Cesca

So Johnny..LETS MAKE A DEAL!!!!!

Johnny, tell her what she has won.....

Hey, Coffee?

Lighten up, will you?

Look Islander, read this poor woman's previous posts. Her 'dear hubby" is the student debtor and she is this guys go between. Read the previous posts and you'll see that she is in an awkward spot.

Listen, sometimes a little humour os good in these situations. If I offended, I do apologize.

Peace to you, friend!

Yes, she's in an awkward spot. Like any wife and mother, she's helping her family cope with the same type of abuses we've all been subjected to and on top of that she is working extra hard to help a disabled husband who clearly has been demoralised and beaten up by his condition and the harrassment he and his family have been subjected to.

She came here asking for help and she's been treated to sanctimonious lectures on what a deadbeat her husband (with whom she is presumably in love) is, accusations of taking advantage of her adopted home, suggestions that she and her family are parasites and juvenile sarcasm. She doesn't need a support network like you; if she needs further degradation, she has bill collectors to do the job.

And yes, you offended and of course your apology is accepted insofar as I am in a position to accept the apology.

Peace to you too.

Have calmed down somewhat after watching 2 episodes of Stargate.

I apologise for blowing my top on my other thread. Islander, I appreciate your support. Pigeon I appreciate your post above, about phase 1 and phase 2. That is very helpful.

DH is more private than I realized. And he's not terribly happy that I am putting our story online. But I need answers. He has been in contact with credit counsellors - in fact he went to see them 2 months ago, when the CA's started calling. The credit counsellors told him to say nothing, do nothing, he has proof he cant pay. He wants his day in court as I said before.

If the CA's ignore our letter, so be it. But guess what - they did not call us at all today.

DH will go down to ODSP tomorrow and get the income changed to our CIBC account. That should take effect at end of November.

Someone asked why DH doesn't get online and read this forum himself. He's not one for reading and research. He's a street smart kind of guy - works with his hands. Can fix anything, do anything, but has lost most of his mobility (hence the disability).

I'm more academic, I love reading and research. I can spend hours online - and often do when I'm not at work. Through my own mistakes I never finished college. But I have lots of "foreign" work experience. I'm hoping eventually to be able to do some certificate courses here that dont cost too much. I want to pay cash up front - I'm not planning on taking out ANY student loans.

Cesca

JOHNNY

I forgot to mention that I do appreciate your post from above - answering my questions.

I have another question.

In several places around this forum I have seen you post the rules for which a CA cannot excute a judgement.

No CSL client shall be referred for justice by the PCA collector if: 4) the CSL client is not gainfully employed 6)A financial assessment and capcity form has been returned detailing hardship and disability; including all proof for substantiation

Since DH is on a disability and is NOT employed, would this mean that he cant be served a judgement? If so this would be a HUGE load off my mind, and I can deal with the CA's knowing they cant do anything more. 

I'll even be happy to have DH fill in the silly FQ we got, with his proof and send it back -  saying "up yours" as we drop the envelope in the mail box. 

Cesca

Hey Islander,

If I crossed any lines, then I am sorry. I believe I apologized. Feel free to continue your diatribe about my alleged insults regarding welfare, immigrant, mothers, deadbeat dads and accusations that her family is full of parasites; while you do this, bear in mind Islander that these your words and inferences and not mine.

Hey, here's a suggestion: why not become a constructive part of the debate instead of making snap and politically correct judgements on other Member's posts?

Look, I dont want to use this as a forum for childish bickering. I said my piece and if I offended, I apologized. I was being truthful in my responses to Cesca. As a Senior Member of this site, Islander, I would expect you to know the difference.  

Peace,

Coffee

My advice to you would be to take bit of a breather and relax.  I think your being a little oversensitive here.

Coffee, Islander - please just stop the bickering.

I accept everyone's apologies.

All I need is an answer to one last question. (the one above addressed to Johnny). Then I can stop posting and my family can get on with our lives 

Cesca

Tabernacle!!!

Cesca.......at this point I would suggest that you either deal with the administrator, Mark or with Johnny. I might also suggest talking to mom as I know she has dealt with the illness situation and may have some relevant information (mom, sorry for mentioning your name without pre-approval but I remember from your previous posts that you dealt with illness and maybe you can provide Cesca with with some decent advice). The only reason I mention it is that is has become apparently clear that the rest of us are not!!!

I think it's time for everyone to stand back and realize that just because you have an opinion......doesn't mean you should express it. I have spent the last hour going through both threads. Why? To try and figure out exactly where the wheels fell off. And with every minute of the last hour I have become angrier. Why? Because we let them win. We talk about standing together to change the system. We talk about creating a united front to deal with the injustice of a system that dehumanizes and criminalizes decent people. For the most part the site accomplishes that. Except now. Islander, Coffee......are you two finished? While the two of you stand on your soap boxes ripping into each other the CA's are reading this and laughing their asses off.

In my previous posts I have tried to be "nice", tried to remind everyone that the purpose of this site is to provide rational advice. Screw it.

WHEN SOMEONE COMES ONTO THIS SITE THEY ARE LOOKING FOR SPECIFIC ANSWERS TO SPECIFIC QUESTIONS. They are not looking for an evalutation of their entire life!!! Coffee, with all due respect, you crossed that line. Whatever your personal views regarding the social structure of this country.....it does not belong on this thread. If you want, start a new thread with that as a topic. I personally would love a good conversation.

Islander...what was the purpose of your last post? You didn't provide advice......you didn't address Cesca's questions. You picked a fight. In the future, I might suggest that if you have an issue with the comments of another member you either contact the administrator or start a new thread discussing those issues. Perhaps a new forum that deals specifically with these situations should be created. The simple truth is that Cesca is spending more time reading the posts of members "bitch-slapping" each other rather than obtaining constructive information. To my knowledge, that was not the purpose of this site.

On a personal level, you mentioned that you were surprised by the comments of "certain members". I am unsure if that was directed at me or not. If so, please be so kind as to bring it to my attention by name so that I can try and explain my comments.

Everyone on this site has scar tissue. Everyone on this site has anger about how they have been treated by the banks, the government, the CA's. Deal with the anger or focus it on the elements of a system who deserve it. Stop focusing it on each other. Society treats us like immature, irresponsible children. Do we have to prove that to them?

Cesca,

There is a legal process involved prior to a court approving a judgement. For this process to even commence, the CA must refer your file back to the lender (i.e. chartered bank, HRDC, Management Board Secretariat) with the recommendation of legal action agaisnt the debtor (that would be DH). Bear in mind that the onus is on the CA and not DH to demonstrate to the lender that the loan is uncollectable. Legal action is the last and least desirable alternative for the lender to collect the debt and, as Pigeon previously noted, this process can take a considerable long time.

The legal process leading to a potential judgment, as I said, is lengthy. It is a civil proceeding and consequently the courts have a legal obligation to inform DH of these proceedings if and when they take place.

Good luck, friend!

I've just re-read the FQ again and at the bottom it says in teeny small lettering - I acknowledge my debt to my creditor and I waive any privilege that may attach to this document.

What does that phrase "privilege that may attach to this document" mean?

Maybe on second thoughts, we wont be filling out the FQ.

Cesca

I wouldn't fill it out either. I have been dealing with CBCL for over 5 years and they have sent me countless questionairres to which I have never sent in a response. Nor have they taken issue with my lack of a response. This is just my experience and CBCL's response. The response of a CA to an uncompleted questionairre may vary depending on the individual collector and/or the CA.

In my experience, as long as I send them regular, uniterrupted monthly payments, they leave me alone. They will rattle my cage when my file is transferred to another collector at CBCL, which is common practice for CA's and is usually marked by a rash of phone calls and then silence for six more months.

cesca

i hae been without a computer for a few days and have not been able to read your other post yet but here's my take on the above...

relax first of all.  i am pretty sure that if DH is on disability, they cannot touch him and you should be able to apply for some sort of disability loan forgiveness thing.  i am just unpacking so i will scrounge up a sample letter for you ( i will email it directly to you if that's ok ?) along with some other info which may be of use to you.  it may take a few days though, since i'm not sure where it is.

secondly, DO NOT TOUCH THAT QUESTIONNAIRE.  those tiny words at the bottomn will come back to bite you on the rear

thirdly you are not responsible for DH"s debt.  i know you want to help him make it all go away but if you are paying on it then the CA's will keep after you for more and it will never be enough.  if you can afford a small monthly payment without sacrificing anything you and hubby NEED you have the option to pay them.  remember, no  one will starve if you do not make a payment to the CA.  it may keep them off your back but it may also make them think there's more money there if they squeeze you hard enough.

i would think about banking some cash to offer a settlement down the road.  if DH is on disability the chances are they won't do anything but call and get nasty.

i am not positive but i would think hubby's disability money should be exempt from garnishment since it is his only income, if the bank ever decided to pursue the matter.  wouldn't look very good to a judge to attack a disabled person't income, would it ?

i will check the other thread and see what else i can offer.  while some of us tend to get a little emotional, and we go off topic and we argue, remember that it's only because we are all very sensitive to the various injustices we have suffered as a result of our loan nightmares, and we are all here to offer our support and advice and encouragement.

Here's what DH will be doing on Monday.

Dont worry he wont be touching or returning the FQ. We are not currently paying anything and dont plan to start.

DH has asked the ODSP to deposit his income to our CIBC account. This account was opened just in the last 2 years and has NEVER had any loans whatsoever deposited to it. After the next payment has gone to the new account, then we will close the RBC acct.

DH is also going to ask the Royal Bank for a copy of his SL file - everything that he can get including all letters and the interest relief.

He is also going to request up-to-date credit reports. Then we can decide what to do.

But going on everything I've read here - if we can prove that we cannot pay (and we can since DH is on ODSP and has been for the last 3 years) - then he wants his day in court to prove it.  

Havong spent a few days reading this entire board - especially the "how to deal with collection agencies" forum, I now feel so much more emplowered about dealing with them.  And yes, I have been educating DH at the same time. I tell him interesting things that I read. I am printing out info that he can read as well. But for now I want to be the screener. I want to have fun. 

If you have a debt in collection, the damage to your credit rating is already done. You may as well let them sue you. It will take many, many months, possibly years, for them to sue you and they may or may not proceed. Even it they do sue you, there is no guarantee they will get a judgement. They cannot touch your assets or garnishee your pay without first suing you and winning a judgement against you. That could take years.

This is essentially our view point as well. DH is a discahrged bankrupt. He has no credit to speak of. If the CA's want money, they can take him to court and demand the judge make us pay. We can show him however many years (by that time) worth of ODSP payment stubs.  I dont believe the CA's have a leg to stand on.

DH has said both to me and to the CA's - its not that he does not want to pay his loan back - he does want to pay it back - and had every intention of paying it back after he left college. He just cannot afford it right now.

DH cant save any money at all since he is now down to receiving between less than 800 per month. (Before I started working he was receiving $1100 per month) Thats because his income is "garnished" (for want of a better word) by ODSP because of my earnings.  I am currently saving to pay off my own immigreation debt - which has top priority.  I then plan to start saving for my own education at college.

One last question. DH's credit report still lists him as single - although we have been married for 4 years.  Are we legally required to update this info? We feel it helps hide my existence.

Cesca

I hope you get your day in court...Personally I never considered that prospect scary because I knew I could prove adminstrative incompetence.

Unfortunately, that threat was never thrown out at me, empty or otherwise. Maybe they knew I could prove it as well.

Wouldn't that be a form of civil disobedience? All of us encourage the collection agencies to take us to court? Clog up the court system with our cases? Judges hearing the same sad story over and over again?

Probably a reason why it wouldn't work though...Probably because the majority of threats are empty.

Poly