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WorkingMama 
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 Topic: out of school seven years, still poor
Posted: 10/October/2005 at 8:49am |
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How much longer do I have to wait?
I was waiting for the bancruptcy charter challenge to win,
how naive could I have bin?
Your update post in the charter challenge section of this website,
mentions applying to the court in cases where
the bancrupt ( I declared about five years ago)
and have been out of school for seven (I was waiting for the 2 year period to be over when they changed the wait to ten)
and my daughter, the pregnancy I withdrew from school with,
is eight. We are living below poverty for this whole time
and when I saw that you posted that in some cases the court will consider writing off the loan after seven years out of school.
My question is: what court? these are B.C. student loans from 1996/7.
And I think there is another one too from Ontario but it's tiny
compared to the B.C. one.
Any suggestions?
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 10/October/2005 at 9:42am |
Until the law changes, you cannot apply to have your student loans discharged as part of a bankruptcy proceeding until yoiu have ceased to be a full or part-time student.
Seven years is 3 short of ten.
Regardless of how the laws change, a bankrupt must demonstrate to the Crown and court that he or she will not be able to repay the student loan in the near or distant future. Also, these extenuating circumstances must be proven as part of the demonstration.
There are MANY people who SHOULD be forgiven as it is NOW. Waiting ten years only compounds the problem and makes it more difficult for that person emotionally and physically.
Those who have no intention of ever paying, and are constantly looking for ways to avoid having to pay make it bad for those who truly deserve the benefit of loan forgiveness and discharge.
Johnny
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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WorkingMama
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Posted: 10/October/2005 at 10:12am |
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John,
Thank you so much for responding so quickly. I am aware of what you're
saying however as the administrator of this site posted this:
"To soften the blow, the bankrupt may apply to the court if their
student loans are more than five years old, and the court may discharge
the debt if the bankrupt has acted in good faith, and the bankrupt has
and will continue to experience financial difficulty to such an extent
that the bankrupt will be unable to pay the debt.
"
so I thought I would enquire. Is this not the case? If it is, who is "the court".
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WorkingMama
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Posted: 10/October/2005 at 10:14am |
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oh ya,
and is this irrelevant since I have defaulted a long time ago and so am no where near acting in good faith?
thanks.
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WorkingMama
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Posted: 10/October/2005 at 10:15am |
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oh ya,
and happy thanksgiving!
I may be poor but I'm not starving!
working mama
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Life is what you make it,
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 10/October/2005 at 11:01am |
This is not written in any section of the CSLFAA, CSLA, or BIA. Section 178 of the BIA is what counts. It states 10 years form the day you cease to become a full or part-time student. Nowhere does it say that a bankrupt can be discharged before this time alottment.
This information that our administrator has described is something that is not yet instituted.
Johnny
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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WorkingMama
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Posted: 10/October/2005 at 2:40pm |
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Johnny,
Ok, thanks for that info. I guess you are sitting by your
computer tackling the world's problems like I am today. Thank-you. Just
a few more questions ....
Is there a way I can lobby parliament to bring what the administrator described about? Is that bill C-55?
Also is there anyone I can write to that will consider my case? I
withdrew from school for medical reasons if that makes any difference.
As well, I was wondering what is the procedure once you've been out of
school ten years? I've heard that it would be possible just to "go to
court" and ask for it to be forgiven, bypassing the whole bancruptcy
experience, which I've already had. And which court would it be
that people are referring to in this case?
thanks again,
Working Mama
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Life is what you make it,
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 10/October/2005 at 5:17pm |
You can lobby it, sure. However, the real issue is getting yourself heard. The system is considering yet another change but the system will only change in such ways that benefit the system, first and foremost.
Bankruptcy is not a solution in VERY many cases. If the courts and Crown determine that a bankrupt will be able to repay - or should be held responsible to repay the debt, then it will be ordered to do so.
Let's face the reality of bankruptcy and student loans. The system may end up loosening the chains to allow a student loan borrower to apply for discharge after 7- even 5 years. The government will simply tighten up the chains on the other end to make the discharge process an even more living hell for an absolute discharge.
The government has nothing to lose by reducing the waiting period to 7 - even 5 years. They already have the discharge process issues in mind and will capitalize on them to ensure that they (the government) do not lose money.
Yet, people will pay $1500.00 to go bankrupt when they could easily visit groups like CFWG who solves problems for people more productively - without the sting of bankruptcy and the crud it leaves behind - for a FRACTION of what bankruptcy actually costs!
The key to making one's way, and/or clearing out a pathway so one can begin to move forward financially is to avoid bankruptcy. I have been teaching and showing people this since I joined the site two years ago! The truth is that it (bankruptcy) will save only those who can convince the government of Canada that they truly cannot ever pay them a dime toward their past student loans.
This site fails to deliver that level of awareness that educates people about the more negative than positive aspects of bankruptcy - and how it can literally destroy an individual's life (financially and emotionally) when a bankruptcy occurs when it really should have been avoided. This site does educate people about how student debt burdens destroy the lives on so many.
Let's get more productive and educate people how to avoid bankruptcy, deal/cope with student debt, minimize stress, and lead productive lives!!!
Johnny
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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WorkingMama
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Posted: 14/October/2005 at 2:44pm |
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"...how it can literally destroy an individual's life (financially and
emotionally) when a bankruptcy occurs when it really should have been
avoided"
Johnny,
I think what you say is true. I may have been one of those cases.
Losing one's credit changes a person from the sheltered, privledged,
even spoiled first world brats we often are to desperate, insecure, but
tenatious and possibly more realistic subsistence livers. It's not
entirely bad to lose your credit, in the same way that it's not bad to
go hungry a few times in your life. But persistent, ongoing hunger
hurts. And it cycles. It affects the children. Especially when single
moms like myself are made to carry the brunt of the debt. Even though I
appreciate what you are doing with this site, very much so, and I'm
sure the CFWG is doing great work (in fact, I had sent you a private
email a while back requesting some help for my case but I didn't get a
reply - though it could be my email account screwing up) I also want to
remind people that bancruptcy should be an option. It was only in 1997
that this government decided to create a "waiting period" and
discriminate against students. While I was waiting the two years, which
even then was really a long time to wait, they changed the waiting
period to ten years. Companies that owe millions of dollars declare
bancruptcy all the time. The government then bails them out with
millions more to get them going again. These companies aren't even
Canadian-owned. Actually there is very little left in this country that
is Canadian. And I don't think it's very Canadian to expect a mother
with a growing child to live on $1500 a month in Toronto. Housing alone
here costs $1000/month. And it doesn't matter if I work my buns off
getting up at 5 am and getting home at 8pm with work to do at home for
work (I'm a teacher) plus my housework, plus helping my child to learn
what she needs to learn because of course her teacher can't actually
help her because she's got 30 students in her class...etc. And even
though my work is seasonal and I spent lots on tuition this year (I
just went back to school) the government wants to take $300 per week
for themselves. So I think it is safe to say that I will never be able
to pay that $30K they say I owe. I can't even put money away for my
daughter's education, nevermind my retirement. I just honestly don' t
know how I am supposed to live here. I don't know what will happen to
me if I get sick for any length of time. etc... Anyway I just think
that the goverment blows a lot of hot air about helping those most in
need but they fail to realize that they are brewing complex and
insideous problems by keeping Moms in debt and insecure.
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WorkingMama
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Posted: 14/October/2005 at 2:47pm |
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oh sorry, that was $300 in tax every two weeks
i'm not quite making that much...
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 14/October/2005 at 3:42pm |
Mama,
Please send the original email to cfwgroup@tekcity.net.
Bankruptcy is just as screwy as a system as the student loan sector. The student debt vice is continuously pressuring in on borrower - and bankruptcy makes all kinds of promises of some miraculous fresh start - and a jump-start to one's personal credit goals. In fact, it does the opposite.
Bankruptcy was originally designed to service those who are in debt and will never be able to get out from underneath it due to disability, and other life-leveling issues. The government allows the private sector to administer and practice it, so it is exposed to some level of corruption. For instance, when bankruptcy is "pushed" upon people as their "only" option by the very administrators of bankruptcy.
The truth is bankruptcy should be one's LAST option if everything else fails to take control and manage the debt load, and not the first option. When people feel that they are up to their eyeballs in debt, and see no foreseeable conclusion to it, the first response is either sweep it under the rug, hide under the bed, or go bankrupt. People do not know that there are more productive ways to cope with, manage, and solve these financial problems. The bankruptcy sector does NOT want people to know this. Otherwise, bankruptcy is a foregone conclusion.
People are led to believe that bankruptcy will get them closer to acquiring a mortgage on a home one day. Some are also led to believe the only way to get their credit life back in order is to go bankrupt and start anew. A bankruptcy follows it’s participant around for a lot longer than this 6 years until it completely purges.
If you read the testimonials in the Recommended Advocates Forum, you will find people there that were in the exact same situation as what you are describing. You would be surprised to know how many teachers I have as clients.
In relation to the 1997 era, that is when the government really took a stand and realized that it’s own debt program (bankruptcy) was causing it’s own student loan sector to lose hundreds of millions of dollars. That is the reason they restricted student loans in the manner described in section 178 of the BIA. The federal government owns bankruptcy, and they also own the Canada Student Loans Program. When the government loses hundreds of millions of dollars to the bankruptcy sector that is something that doesn’t go down very well with the Finance, HRSDC, and CSL departments. How did this happen? Was it the fact that bankruptcy is administered by the private sector and not policed properly by the feds the reason for this? I would say it is a large part of the equation. In the good old days, the greedy bankruptcy trustees were selling bankruptcy like tickets to heaven to exiting students as an exit strategy rather than a responsible way of dealing with debt issues. Bankruptcy was recognized as the thing to do because they knew bankruptcy to be a credible thing, and it was heavily advertised as the ultimate solution. People in debt up to their eyeballs had no idea what they were getting themselves into.
Today, there are many people who have it all set in their mind that bankruptcy is going to save them. Maybe it will, but what if it doesn’t? Deal with the fall if the bridge falls short, so they say. The key is to build bridges, and ensure that they are a safe passage. Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to repair the damage that bankruptcy leaves behind when it is NOT the right prescription.
Here is what you do not know:
1) The government will compromise if a person can demonstrate that their hardship is genuine – and debilitating in such a way as to render him or her in a bad financial state. I help people achieve this – with the help of the government every day.
2) The provincial governments will also compromise if there is reason to do so.
3) The banks who bear risk compromise simply because the governments have more clout in respect to collection and recovery.
So, I end this with a question to everyone who thinks bankruptcy is his or her only salvation:
If there is no permanently disability, how can one draw the conclusion that they will never be able to repay their student debt without knowing what the future may bring?
Johnny
www.cfwgroup.ca
www.cfwgroup.ca/forum
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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vickie
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Posted: 14/October/2005 at 5:02pm |
Johnny:
I (and my husband) have huge student loans. I have a judgement against me for my Canada Student loans. If we could actually bargain these loans down significantly, there is a possibility we could pay them back (in about 20 years). Is it possible to bargain them down after a "Judgement"? Can they be cut significantly? (like in half) I'm afraid anything short of that would be impossible for us (it's like a mortgage)
Any answers would be welcome.
Thanks
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 14/October/2005 at 5:41pm |
If you can give them a reason to do it, then they will do it. So, yes, it is possible.
If a judgment has been anchored against you by Justice's CLAS, then is no easier to motivate a compromise. It all depends on your situation, and how sever it is to warrant a compromise of that calibre.
I am sure that you owe more than just the Crown for a CSL. You likely have bank risk (prov. and fed.) as well. Please tell me who you owe besides the Crown.
Johnny
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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Staretz
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Posted: 16/October/2005 at 10:36am |
well, i was legally blind when i declared bankruptcy 4 years ago. this time two years ago i was almost totally blind. and that is a matter of medical record. i guess now that i have my eyesight back(for the most part), i have no choice but spend the rest of my life paying off student loans i cant afford. after all it hasnt been 10 years yet. and even if it does then i still have unspecified hoopps to go through. well at least i know what i am up against. Why do i even bother having the faintest bit of hope that i will ever be rid of this?
Hey, its only 11% interest. Its only slightly over twice my annual salary. after all since i'm not blind anymore there are a kajillion high paying jobs around that i can use to pay off the loans.
I don't care anymore. I. Just. Don't. Care. if i am alive at the age of 105, i will still be paying them off. i may as well get used to it. back in the 80's i was naive, foolish, and stupid enough to think that i could make a positive difference in people's lives. i should have known better. i deeply regret ever having gone to university. all i have to show for it is a debt load i will not be albe to pay off. instead of dedicating my life to the service of others, i will have to dedicate my life to the service of my student loan.
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 16/October/2005 at 11:01am |
So, what if your debt can be reduced to an amount that is affordable?
You have medical documentation showing your inability to hold employment from time ago due to your eye problems, don't you? If a doctor has told you that there is no way you can work, then there are things that can be done.
Even if you were not permanently disabled, being legally blind makes if aweful difficult to locate and secure suitable employment.
So, what does giving up do for you, Staretz? Does it give you peace of mind? I doubt that. You fail to see the opprtunity in your situation.
Opportunity often comes disguised as temporary defeat. 
Johnny
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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Staretz
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Posted: 16/October/2005 at 12:38pm |
well thi is what happens when i post while depressed i guess. I am pretty sure I am above the threshold for legal blindness though, even when I was legally blind, I was employed for 8 of those 10 years.
The provincial loan principle is a little under 9k. The federal one is somewhere over 50k. the royal bank got notification that i am not in bankruptcy anymore. hrdc hasnt. they probably lost it. figures. so I will get my trustee-nin-bankruptcy to notify them again.
Peace of mind? the only peace of mind i will have is to no longer have those debts. resignation is not the same as gving up. resignation is realising tht the only way out is through.
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 16/October/2005 at 1:35pm |
Hi Staretz,
I understand what you are saying and going through. It is difficult to get past stress and the associated depression that accompanies it. Hang in there.
Look for a way and not a way out. I just carved a pathway for you in my post above. There is your way.
Johnny
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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Staretz
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Posted: 16/October/2005 at 1:37pm |
I'll get the machete out 
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SolveStudentDebt
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Posted: 16/October/2005 at 1:43pm |
You don't need that. it is already wide enough - and clear. Just follow it. If you need company, give me a holler.
You have EVERY argument necessary to make this work for you. If your hardship is genuine, which I am sure it is, then they HAVE to listen to you. If theydo not, then it goes on record that they are not interested in helping citizens of the country they govern.
What gets resuls? Action.
Why do people feel that they get no results? They are taking the wrong action.
Johnny
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Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. solvestudentdebt.com
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vickie
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Posted: 22/October/2005 at 10:20am |
Johnny:
I owe aprox. $22000 in Canada Student Loans and aprox. $20000 in Ontario student loans. I have a small manageable credit card debt too. I was thinking I might be able to afford payments on a $20000 consolidation loan to pay back the student loans but that would mean they would have to be cut in half. If I can't get them reduced, I see no other alternative than declairing bankruptcy at the 10 year mark or sooner if bill c 55 passes. My husband also has even bigger debts. I support a family of 6 on about $2600 a month, make regular payments to my and my husband's loans, and pay for a car loan. I and over debted and stretched to the max. I don't even know if I could get a consolidation loan. I think I'ld have to get my mom to co-sign. I couldn't handle any payments over $200 a month.
Any advice?
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out of school seven years, still poor