This website is a testimony to the problems Canadian Student Loan borrowers experienced from approximately 1996 to 2008 and until their loans were paid off.
The privatization of the Student Loans system by the Chretien and Martin Liberal governments broke the system and defaulted thousands of borrowers who were trying to pay their loans. There were even stories of suicide due to the harassment of borrowers.
Read the report that I prepared back in 2007 here. Canada Student Loans-The Need for Change Fortunately the new Conservative government at the time revamped the program and fixed the system for new borrowers, but borrowers under the previous program were left with ruined credit and continued harassment from debt collectors.
I call on the Canadian Government to apologize to the borrowers affected by this fiasco and make amends.
Unfortunately the Liberal government is again clobbering the Education system with their changes to International Student Visas. Yes, there's a problem, but instead of a well thought out plan, they have pulled the emergency brake on the train causing a derailment. This has introduced unprecedented instability for both private and public education institutions who serve both international and local students.
Universities have been forced to cancel programs and layoff hundreds if not thousands of full-time and contract instructors.
Again, the Liberal government has messed up the education environment.
QuoteReplyTopic: Vote NDP & Make Tuition Free Posted: 03/May/2004 at 12:50am
It's true, European and Scandinavian nations are providing freely accessable university education for all their citizens while we, in Canada, get elitist, conservative-liberal politics. We're getting the shaft while India cranks out three times the number of engineering graduates we do in pay-as-you-go and free universities for the economically disadvantaged. IBM, INTEL, Microsoft, McDonald's restarurants and more are exporting American jobs to India and China at break neck speed. China's economy is set to grow at an unprecedented 8 or 9% for about the 21st year in a row while this right wing Liberal government pursues debt reduction at a time when Canada's social programs are in need of funding. Martin and his obssession with lowering the debt to GDP ratio would achieve the same debt reduction one year later in 2013 with the current debt service payments. Meanwhile, those large American corporations are proving to us all that they can cede 51% controlling interest in their foreign subsid's to a communist-interventionist state economy and still thrive. That's even further to the left than socialism.
Vote NDP and make university education a basic human right and not a privelege of the upper class in Canada.
Each of us has one day every four or five years to hit them square between the eyes by casting a vote for the New Democratic Party in any and all provincial and federal elections.
The federal NDP will offer affordable education. University is free in the social democracies of Europe, and their national debts aren't as large as ours or the U.S.A's.
Zafire says :: You're part of the reason why the left fails in Canada. You're part of the reason why no-one this side Burnaby can't take the NDP seriously. >>
Well that makes sense to me. And I see you've substituted rationale with political sloganeering. The truth is that the NDP has never formed a federal government, and yet we probably have the world's 2nd largest national debt next to that other bastion of conservatism, the United States who are proving to the rest of the world that economic Darwinism costs more than social democracy.
>>Can anyone seriously suggest that they want more government? More taxes anyone? More stupid social programs? >>
Stupid social programs ?. My my! If you look at where we and those Darwinian's south of the 49th were before the great depression of the 1930's(and what was so great about it, really?) both countries had moribund economies that were experiencing economic recessions more frequently and more severe as socialists like Einstein and communists of Marx' following had predicted. The Keynesian's descibed how the American and other versions of Smithian free market did not provide affordable housing, health care or education for the poor and disadvantaged and armies of the unemployed whose basic needs were not being served by "the ivisible hand" or any other conservative deities, false or otherwise. Keynes showed that governments had a responsibility to intervene when the economy needed stimulus and if subscribing to laissez faire idealogy, "that in the economic long run we're all dead."
And with Canada's child poverty and infant mortality being second worst only to the U.S. when comparing developed first world nations, many socialists in Canada are calling for more social democracy, not less.
And as for the EU-15, Scandinavian's and Europeans are affluent nations. Socialist Norwegian's are better off than most Canadian's. Singaporan's, socialist since the 1960's, own the world's fifth highest incomes and which country made Harvard and Jeffry Sachs top two or three list of most competitive economies during the last five years. Luxembourgian's have the highest per capita GDP in the world while oil rich Alberta has carried the highest per capita provincial debts in Canadian history before red nosed Ralph cleaned out the Heritage fund to save embarassment and pending accusations of mismanaged economy out there.
Check out London's April first issue of "The Economist" magazine talking about Eurosocialism and how Scandi's and the French actually tax capital less than the Yanks do in paying for what is a wealth of social democracy, including free university education as a right for all citizens as it should be.
The federal NDP will offer affordable education. University is free in the social democracies of Europe, and their national debts aren't as large as ours or the U.S.A's.
Why is it that you can never debate with a sixties-era socialist? I wonder who are worse, Jehovah Witnesses or Communist Manifesto thumpers?
In any event I will try to 'rationalize' with you:
SocialismNow wrote:
Zafire says :: You're part of the reason why the left fails in Canada. You're part of the reason why no-one this side Burnaby can't take the NDP seriously. >>
Well that makes sense to me. And I see you've substituted rationale with political sloganeering.
If I am not mistaken, you're the one who posted
Vote NDP and make university education a basic human right and not a privelege of the upper class in Canada.
If this is not political sloganeering, please fill me in...
SocialismNow wrote:
Stupid social programs ?. My my! If you look at where we and those Darwinian's south of the 49th were before the great depression of the 1930's
Yep, stupid social programs. Like Canada Student Loans. Like welfare and its trappings... Tell me, why do big-government socialists always make comparisons with the US? The US is bad, capitalistic, rotten-to-the-core, while Europe is enlightened? It is a bit binary, not to say tiring, don't you think?
Just to set the record straight, Norway kills whales, but is not an EU country ; France and Germany are bleeding behind the ears and Spain's 1990s economic miracle is considered a model for pulling Europe out of the hole that it finds itself in. Luxembourg, being the miniscule fiscal paradise that it is, can't really be compared to any other European state. Alas, if you want to I you want to talk about economic stagnation, don't put a divide across the Atlantic. In my estimation, it is a western disease. And, by the way, don't you think that Singapore's socialism makes a good mix with its latent fascism?
But if there is one thing that I do agree with you on is that there is a pending social crisis, involving child poverty, a bankrupt educational system, etc. What I am not so sure on, however, is the traditional--and Canadian--response to ask and expect the government to find solutions. In my experience, they are bad, half-assed, and paternalistic.
After launching a second somewhat vicious and meandering attack on the social consensus, Zafire eventually attempts a less emotional critque of socialism ...
>>>Yep, stupid social programs. Like Canada Student Loans. Like welfare and its trappings... Tell me, why do big-government socialists always make comparisons with the US? The US is bad, capitalistic, rotten-to-the-core, while Europe is enlightened? It is a bit binary, not to say tiring, don't you think?>>
Welfare and unemployment insurance are failry new ideas since the failure of Smithian laissez faire capitalism of the 1930's. An interesting and little known fact about the American economy is that of the economic model which began with the New Dealer's post laissez failure. About half of the wealth generated in America comes from spending on ammenities or social programs and provisions for the middle class: pensions, education, medicaid for the poor. These soft budget constraints have little to do with the free market and are what employs millions of American's. Take this model away, and you're left with the Chicago School of Economics experiment in Chile. That was a sixteen year right wing conservative experiment conducted in a human rights vacuum. The economy was deregulated to the extreme while yet another right wing fascist had the nation's socialists and union leaders imprisoned, tortured, executed or all three and not necessarily in that order.
Socialists like to use the U.S. as a bad example of capitalism run amok because it's true. The right wing Yanks spend about 14% of its GDP on social programs and have been cutting social spending since about the Reagan administration, and it shows as every state government is currently running a budget deficit while the Shrub regime runs a record high fiscal deficit of $520 Billion. The IMF has warned the Yanks that such fiscal iresponsibility and dependence on foreign banks to finance their conservative spending habits is creating instability in the global financial system. Even Castro has accused the right wing Dubya regime of running a banana republic. And our child poverty and infant mortality are slightly better than theirs as the U.S. continues to maintain large underclass, especially now with president Shrub managing the first net job loss economy since Hoover's laissez failure conservatives of the 1930's. The Yanks are not creating enough jobs to meet the influx of new workers into the economy. And they rarely ever have. While money for the cold war economy dries up, the American's are building more super prisons to warehouse the poor. In fact, private gulag's were a theme stock of the 1990's as the Yanks now have the largest incarcerated population in the world with over six million in gulags, on probation or on parole. And it costs the taxpayers when a minor drug offense will have a black youth do more time than the perperators of Enrong, Global Crossup, Adolphia or WorldCon would do for their part in white collar crime, estimated to be worth 20 times the value of blue collar theft in North America. I could go on about the States and how abject poverty is linked to mild to severe malnutrition, anxiety, learning disabilities, violence and how their expanding gulag system, justice system, policing and loss of productivity to the economy results in added $billions spent on treating symptoms of a lack of social justice rather than abating the problem at the source with social democracy. The NDP shows us how
four years of university tuition is still cheaper than when the taxpayers foot the bill for one convict to spend one year in Canada's prison system. Socialism makes sense all the way round, and not only that, it's being socially responsible.
If you'd rather haggle with banks or right wing governments over student loans instead of simply going to school, then please do vote for any one of the liberal or conservative candidates in the coming election. I just won't be here to listen to the whining afterwards though.
cheers!
The federal NDP will offer affordable education. University is free in the social democracies of Europe, and their national debts aren't as large as ours or the U.S.A's.
You haven't seen socialism until you understand right wing socialism giving the rich in North America, a tax free haven, totaly endorsed and created by Liberals, and Conservatives, and known as Family Trusts. These rich entreprenurial families pay no taxes on their corporate assets or business dealings that are carried on inside of these family trusts. These trusts were put in by Trudeau, for a ten year period and then they were extended by Mulroney indefinately in case these families might might have a dependant disabled child who might need a billion or so in assets to get by on maintain them during their lives. Us poor slobs are lucky to get a limited tax deduction for a disabled child under 18, of less than 10,000 dollars.
One such rich entreprenurial family member in the last 10 years took 2 billion in corporate assets out of Canada and although challenged by a private citizen has been fought by the government to leave this person alone and not make him pay the taxes on the money taken out of the family trust
As far as the sixties go that was a period where the North American economy was at or above its economic potential for output and this coincided with the Vietnam war, gee what away to get ahead Socialism nows brother
The federal NDP will offer affordable education. University is free in the social democracies of Europe, and their national debts aren't as large as ours or the U.S.A's.
And don't forget cheap auto insurance helps make Saskatchewan an affordable place to live. Dalton (Norman Bates) McGuinty talked about getting after insurance companies for gouging drivers as they've just recorded record profits. But the Liberal's are caving in on just about all their promises here in Ontario as per usual.
And as Paul Martin and the federal liberals continue to underfund universities across Canada, education is gradually becoming a privelege of upper class Canadians and for immigrants who already have degrees paid for by their governments. One or two universities in Canada offer a 2nd degree in various subjects and compressed into a one year time frame. he university in my home town is full of East Indian's, Chinese, Russian's, Thai's, and more who haven't had a chance yet to be blackballed by Equifax or other Orwellian style credit agencies.
My father and uncles volunteered and went overseas in 1939. The old man was involved in a close scrape at Ortona, Italy when they did house to house combat with German paratroopers. A Veterans Affairs rep promised my family that as the orphan of a veteran, my education costs would be covered by the feds. A couple of decades later, I'm in hawk for over $20 000 bucks and stil lonly have a three year engineering technology diploma that looks rather sad to the employers in Ottawa and Toronto who have all these new Canadians with multiple degrees to pick and choose from. And these new Canadians take all the damned bachelor apartments and cram ten of their familiy and friends in to one room and leave more expensive apartments for the rest of us at $850 to $1200 bucks a month to pick from. And most of the corporate landlords won't rent to a Canadian with the slightest of bad credit marks on your record. I had to take an apartment in Arnprior and commute for two hours every day in a broken down van that wouldn't have passed a mechanical.
I hate this country that the liberals have made for us. We need a damned regime change.
The federal NDP will offer affordable education. University is free in the social democracies of Europe, and their national debts aren't as large as ours or the U.S.A's.
Of course if there is anything wrong here it can be blamed on the Devine Government that was in power a couple decades ago.
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Are the conservative Devine bunch out of prison yet for their part in corruption and graft ? LOL!
The federal NDP will offer affordable education. University is free in the social democracies of Europe, and their national debts aren't as large as ours or the U.S.A's.
I think they are cleaning them out to make room for Padre Calvert and Company
and as far as your Comment
"he university in my home town is full of East Indian's, Chinese, Russian's, Thai's, and more who haven't had a chance yet to be blackballed by Equifax or other Orwellian style credit agencies. "
That is not really a nice socialist thing to say is it?
And to head off a couple things at the pass.
I am a soldier, just got back from Op Athena in Jan as a matter of fact. And I have nothing against people feeling places like that and coming here. It is the criminals that I do not want here, which are usually the people who can pay to get in.
You arguement on who is the better Gov falls on deaf ears with me. I think all of them are just pigs waiting for their turn at the trough.
Take south africa for example, the poor thought that their life would improve after apartheid fell and the white gov was removed from power. They found after the new Gov was formed... nothing changed.. they were as bad off as before.
"The university in my home town is full of East Indian's, Chinese, Russian's, Thai's, and more who haven't had a chance yet to be blackballed by Equifax or other Orwellian style credit agencies. "
That is not really a nice socialist thing to say is it?
It's not a terribly nice thing to say, no. If you're impying that I'm a racist, then you're reaching ... a lot. I am multi-ethnic, myself, and I would point you to the very racist actions of the Liberal and conservative governments of the past. The examples are too numerous to mention. I'm beginning to find your personal attack on me and the federal NDP's promise to raise the standard of education and making it available to all Canadians really quite interesting, especially given the nature of this web site and its subject matter. Are you a stooge for the banks or a mouth piece for the right wing governments in Canada who're making education unaffordable for millions of Canadians ?
And to head off a couple things at the pass. I am a soldier, just got back from Op Athena in Jan as a matter of fact. And I have nothing against people feeling places like that and coming here. It is the criminals that I do not want here, which are usually the people who can pay to get in.
Really. Thanks for volunteering that info. I had no idea.
People feeling places like that and coming here ?. I see why you may have mistaken me for a bigoted right winger. In fact, I've worked closely with engineers and computer scientists from all over the world while working in Kanata in the telecom industry, and I have the utmost respect for all immigrants and people in general. What I'm actually saying is that our feds should increase access to university ed and job training to the level it is in countries like Sweden, Germany, Japan, Singapore, Norway, France and Britain. Even conservative Britain has affordable access to university ed while not requiring payback of loans until your income is over 15 000 quid a year or so. Here in Canada, as you may or may not know, people are paid less than a living wage to harass me on the phone to no end to make payments on a student loan debt sentence for which they themselves would be in tough to cover on their own low wages. I'm not guilty of saying no to immigration as the conclusion you've obviously jumped to without reason. I am, in fact, saying that our feds should allow all Canadians the same access to education and job training that exist in social democracies of Europe and China and Japan and especially Scandinavia.
You arguement on who is the better Gov falls on deaf ears with me. I think all of them are just pigs waiting for their turn at the trough.
Well if liberals have had a stranglehold on federal governance for something like 30 years with brief periods of the Campbell and Mulroney corruption inbetween, then I can see your faulty logic that the third party who has never been elected must be the same and therfore Euro social democracy is a socialist sham. You certainly do hear, see and speak no evil.
Take south africa for example, the poor thought that their life would improve after apartheid fell and the white gov was removed from power. They found after the new Gov was formed... nothing changed.. they were as bad off as before.
No, they aren't as bad off as when the racists ruled with an iron fist and those living in the Soweto townships subsisted in abject poverty. The right wing death squads of the apartheid government made life miserable for a lot of South-African blacks. You don't know much about living life under an oppressive, fascist, right wing rule, do you ?. Take a gander south of the border and observe the diff's between there and here, laddie.
The federal NDP will offer affordable education. University is free in the social democracies of Europe, and their national debts aren't as large as ours or the U.S.A's.
I have been reading this exchange with some interest, (even if it has turned into an NDP campaign site) and I have one question...
How exactly will an NDP government help? For most people here the damage is done. Are you suggesting that an NDP government will grandfather free education and eliminate all outstanding student debt? That seems highly unlikely. In fact, I would think that nothing would change, as an NDP government going about creating a socialist paradise in Canada would be jumping at every scrap of revenue it could find to finance its promises.
Conversely, an NDP government would have to run an immense deficit to finance the Euro socialist conversion, which, while it make make things peachy in the short term, would cause a great deal of long term harm in terms of Canada's economic position in the world. Anyone who remembers the Bob Rae government in Ontario will also remember the backlash that allowed Mike Harris to take power, slash and cut and help to create a lot of the problems that those of us in Ontario are now dealing with in relation to student loans and the cost of education.
I guess what I'm asking is, while theory and rhetoric sound great when electioneering, what would the concrete details be and what makes you think that any long term benefits (i.e.-longer than the likely one term an NDP government would serve before Canadians (read the ones who "count" to politicians, such as property owners and business owners) give them the boot and the new Conservative (read Alliance) party and Stephen Harper are allowed to run amok and create the very American style of life you have so vigorously railed against) would be forthcoming?
I merely pointed out a practical example of NDP Gov... albiet Provincial, who have been in power as long or longer than the federal Liberals.
Yes Saskatchewan.... what an economic utopia.
"The university in my home town is full of East Indian's, Chinese, Russian's, Thai's, and more who haven't had a chance yet to be blackballed by Equifax or other Orwellian style credit agencies"
Yes you did make racist comments... be a man and own up to it instead of blowing smoke. And really since when does skin colour or ethnic origin exclude you from being a racist? I am multi ethnic... I cannot be racist.... nobody is buying that.
I am all for affordable education actually, the reason I even came to this site was because of the similar problems I faced with Banks and HRDC.
"You don't know much about living life under an oppressive, fascist, right wing rule, do you ?"
I dunno does the Taliban count? When you leave your little cubicle and get your hands dirty someplace, come back and we can talk about the real word.
I think if you had simply stated your point without all the NDP election propaganda, it would have been better recieved
It is regrettable that Mr. SocialismNow's arguement is filled with so many falacies. I don't have time to cite all of them, but I will mention a couple. For example, conservative, market driven domestic policy in Chile didn't cause human rights abuses. Horrible people who had an ounce of power did.
This line is particularly good: I see why you may have mistaken me for a bigoted right winger. In fact, I've worked closely with engineers and computer scientists from all over the world while working in Kanata in the telecom industry, and I have the utmost respect for all immigrants and people in general.
Homophobes use the same formula, saying "I have a lot of friends who are gay, but I don't like them..." It is bad thinking and leads to all sorts of problems (racism, discrimination, even violence).
Although terribly expressed, I do think it does express an otherwise valid complaint: why isn't the government protecting Canadians? Or why isn't the government providing the same possibilities to Canadian as other foreign countries do to their citizens? On a more radical level one could even ask why the government is undermining Canadians by forcing them into debt servitude situations (student loans) and, at the same time, having them compete with foreigners, who have recieved a free or cheap education. It is not suprising that people are resentful.
Getting back to the NDP, my feeling is that they have always been a party shaped by wanky radicals and trade unions...and tarnished by psuedo-progressive media outlets. That said, after spending some time actually reading their platform, I can say that I agree with most of what they say. Are the pigs waiting at the trough? Likely... But better a skinny pig in waiting than a fat and complacent one already there.
What creeps me out though are, as I said, political fundementalists like Mr. SocialismNow, who want to baptize the world.
Now only if we had a political system that was representative of what people actually thought. When will we ever do away with ridings and get a PR system?
AaronStew says ...."How exactly will an NDP government help? For most people here the damage is done. Are you suggesting that an NDP government will grandfather free education and eliminate all outstanding student debt? That seems highly unlikely."
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No, you're right. The federal liberals and Mulroney's government have run up Canada's national debt and have left little wiggle room for any social programs. In fact, Canada's national debt is 2nd only to those economic Darwinist's south of the border. But Layton has proposed that all interest paid on strudent loans since 1995 be applied against the principal of your loan. What's Paul Martin offering us besides nothing next to nil ?. And if Harper and his nazis are elected, student loan debtors might as well look for the first work houses to make a comeback and perhaps debtor's prison, too.
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AaronStew says ..."In fact, I would think that nothing would change, as an NDP government going about creating a socialist paradise in Canada would be jumping at every scrap of revenue it could find to finance its promises."
Yes, and instead of pursuing Paul Martin's reduction of Canada's debt to GDP ratio goals for 2012, the NDP would use some of the $30 billion dollar surplus Martin has stolen from workers over the years from the UI-EI-OH slush fund and and begin funding universities and colleges so that Canadian kids won't have to go through the nightmare that we're enduring with our student loan debt sentences resulting from skyrocketing tuition fees. Perhaps if the NDP were handed 27 consecutive years of rule in Canada or a similar 42 consecutive years in Ontario, longer than Casrtro has ruled Cuba, then maybe the NDP could have a chance to give Canadians a higher standard for university education as it is in the Euro nations. Euro nations have been providing more social programs for more people and for as long as Canada has with our own eroded social consensus, and they aren't in half as much debt in Norway or Sweden or France as we are in Hoser Land. In fact, "hosed" is about how most young Canadians should feel who are saddled with these student loan mortgages before even starting out life.
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AaronStew says ..."Conversely, an NDP government would have to run an immense deficit to finance the Euro socialist conversion, which, while it make make things peachy in the short term, would cause a great deal of long term harm in terms of Canada's economic position in the world. "
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What position?. Our infant mortality and child poverty rates are only just better than those social and economic Darwinian's south of the border. Our unemployment rates are sky high in all but our largest cities straddled along the 49th parallel. The Albertan's paid for natural gas and petroleum pipelines in allowing us to be the largest exporter of oil to the U.S. while our gas is piped back to us with tarrifs slapped. We pay MacBlo to rape B.C.;s forests and now the Yanks are using high lift choppers to carry away what they missed on our mountain tops. I mean, how much less of a spine could Canada's feds have in dealing with a country where the NAFTA tribunals are located and decisions made on our own trade practices and behooves ?.
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Aaron Stew says " Anyone who remembers the Bob Rae government in Ontario will also remember the backlash that allowed Mike Harris to take power, slash and cut and help to create a lot of the problems that those of us in Ontario are now dealing with in relation to student loans and the cost of education."
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If you understand economic history at all, you'd realize that there was a global recession at the start of the 1990's. Provincial governments have little else to do but administer provincial programs, and the NDP did the best it could while the Mulroney conservatives slashed transfers to Ontario by about $3 billion. The Petersen Liberal's also fudged the books before the election and left the Ontario NDP'ers with a $2 - $3 Billion dollar annual deficit. The Ray governement was actually the first Ontario to ever reduce the year to year spending to deal with the economic crisis then, which was said by many economists to have been as severe as some aspects of the 1930's depression in terms of job loss and reduced government revenues.
_________________________________
I guess what I'm asking is, while theory and rhetoric sound great when electioneering, what would the concrete details be and what makes you think that any long term benefits (i.e.-longer than the likely one term an NDP government would serve before Canadians (read the ones who "count" to politicians, such as property owners and business owners) give them the boot and the new Conservative (read Alliance) party and Stephen Harper are allowed to run amok and create the very American style of life you have so vigorously railed against) would be forthcoming?
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One term of Harper's right winger's is about all that Canadian's could stomach before the economy did a nose dive the way it did with the Mulroney conservatives, the way that Ronald Reagan's conservatives killed the economy with trickle down deficit spending to the way Maggie Thatcher pauperized the Brits with Milton Friedman at her side to the way the Libertarian Chicago School of Economists put the jack boots to Chile's economy in the 1970's and '80's with wide scale deregulation of the economy there.
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Thanks for any input!
Cheers,
Salut et cheers!
The federal NDP will offer affordable education. University is free in the social democracies of Europe, and their national debts aren't as large as ours or the U.S.A's.
We can't expect a self-declared socialist and a social libertarian to agree with each other on every topic. However, it is fair of us to demand that we all stay away from personal insults.
Sure, SocialismNow was the first member to bring up issues of race and culture in this discussion thread. However, those comments are difficult to interpret as racist. The accusion of racism is not appropriate and not helpful. It put SocialismNow in a position of saying, "No, I'm not a racist because..." And Boy Howdy, did some people ever jump on that response!!
Frankly, when someone calls you a racist, there is nothing you can say to defend yourself. Those of us who are not racists say, "I'm not racist -- why, some of my best friends are black!" Sadly, we all suspect that this is exactly what a racist would say. What are the non-racists supposed to say?!?
Sure, somebody mentioned race. Err... No, actually this person mentioned country of origin, but that's close enough for someone who really wants to call someone a racist, right? SocialismNow wrote that people who are new to Canada have not yet had the full opportunity to have their lives screwed up by Equifax. (Seriously, read his post. He included Russian immigrants, who might actually be white people, even though their credit ratings are still good.)
You might not agree with SocialismNow's point about Equifax and immigrants (versus lifelong Canadian residents and citizens). But it is unfair and disruptive to label the author of the post a racist person. Stick to the issues, I beg you.
And for the record, I do disagree with SocialismNow's central points. Sure, there are some historical examples of successful socialist societies, but it is naive to believe that contemporary Canadian culture would improve by switching our long-standing system to a socialist model. Worse yet, the notion that an NDP government could make tuition universally free and equal is a complete fairy tale. Again, that's my opinion.
SocialismNow is wrong, at least in my humble opinion, but I will not say that SocialismNow is wrong by calling him a racist.
--Sean (who doesn't have any black friends, by the way)
Thanks for your response SocialismNow. However, I believe that the only thing you have shown me is that I was correct in my original assessment. Aside from some long winded griping about how terrible everyone but the NDP are, you haven't shown me any concrete information on how this is supposed to be accomplished.
I'm not trying to get on your case, but if we're having a discussion here, let's make it a discussion, rather than a tirade. You seem to be campaigning for the NDP, so convince me. You have indicated that rather than paying down debt, the NDP would spend projected surplulses on social programs, i.e.-education et. al. You also suggested that 40 years of NDP rule would be about the right amount of time to bring us in line with your imagined Euro-topia. What kind of landscape, (economic and otherwise), would we be facing after that period of time without a thought for national debt?
I'd honestly like you to show me how this would all work... if it's a viable plan, I'd jump all over it come the fall. I don't enjoy being indebted from my education, but I just can't see how handing control of the country over to a party of free-for-all spending spree types will make a difference for the better.
Zafire says It is regrettable that Mr. SocialismNow's arguement is filled with so many falacies. I don't have time to cite all of them, but I will mention a couple. For example, conservative, market driven domestic policy in Chile didn't cause human rights abuses. Horrible people who had an ounce of power did.
The conservative elitists in Chile could not have implemented wide scale deregulation of the economy had the democratic elections been respected by the Pinochet fascists and their ultra right wing enablers in the States. What happened on 9-11-73 was a coup d'etat against a democractically elected leftist government with the murder of 1000's of socialists and union leaders over the course of 16 years and right wing economic rule. The elimination of socialists and union leaders was necessary for Chicago School Economics to be fully implemented. What happened after that was wide scale unemployment as the "U" rate raged at 40% at one point and deficits soared to record proportions. Tens of thousands of Chilean's relied on soup kitchens to keep body and soul together. Pinochet himself reversed the conservative economic reforms in 1985 after 16 long years. Only five Latin American countries economies faired worse in that same time span in terms of per cap GDP, accumulated deficits and loss of investment in the economy. Commentators the world over said that Friedman's economics and democracy were incompatible at that time. Pregnant socialists in 1980's Argentina who didn't abort on the torture tables were paraded infront of military personel for adoption. Union leaders were hooded and flown out over the Pacific and never seen again by their families. Padres roles were to convince the pilots that they were doing God's work and they should not fail their responsibilities to rid that country of the red menace.
This line is particularly good: I see why you may have mistaken me for a bigoted right winger. In fact, I've worked closely with engineers and computer scientists from all over the world while working in Kanata in the telecom industry, and I have the utmost respect for all immigrants and people in general.
Zafire says Homophobes use the same formula, saying "I have a lot of friends who are gay, but I don't like them..." It is bad thinking and leads to all sorts of problems (racism, discrimination, even violence).
Where did I ever say that I was against immigrants and immigration?
No where did I say that immigrants were bad for Canada or that they should be shipped out.
In fact, Texan-American and former Bill Buckley Junior protege, Michael Lind says that political conservatism in the States was created by a few southern dems-republicans from the Reconstruction era. And for a lack of any real political doctrinaire of their own, copied much of Marx's communist manifesto with only minor changes here and there. Lind is probably the highest ranking conservative defector from the American right says that "conservatism in the U.S. is based on religious revivalism and racism."
Zafire says ....Although terribly expressed, I do think it does express an otherwise valid complaint: why isn't the government protecting Canadians? Or why isn't the government providing the same possibilities to Canadian as other foreign countries do to their citizens? On a more radical level one could even ask why the government is undermining Canadians by forcing them into debt servitude situations (student loans) and, at the same time, having them compete with foreigners, who have recieved a free or cheap education. It is not suprising that people are resentful.
Exactly! That's what I was driving at, the need for a level playing field for workers around the world. if we're going to compete with workers around the world, then why not allow our young people the same chances and without piling debt onto the underclass in our society as a reward for wanting to participate in the economy to their fullest potentials.
Zafire says Getting back to the NDP, my feeling is that they have always been a party shaped by wanky radicals and trade unions...and tarnished by psuedo-progressive media outlets. That said, after spending some time actually reading their platform, I can say that I agree with most of what they say. Are the pigs waiting at the trough? Likely... But better a skinny pig in waiting than a fat and complacent one already there.
Sure. Good thinking. I can't think of any juvenile insults to effectively counter that crystal clear logic, so you win all the way round.
Zafire says What creeps me out though are, as I said, political fundementalists like Mr. SocialismNow, who want to baptize the world.
I'd be a lot more creeped out over what's happening to university funding in Canada by these Liberal's. Sometimes they can be further to the right in their policies than the conservative party. Even though ythe conservatives and NDP are polar opposites, the Liberal's get under our collective socialist skins the most as we realize how few liberal policies they've ever implemented while in power.
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Zafire says ...Now only if we had a political system that was representative of what people actually thought. When will we ever do away with ridings and get a PR system?
The NDP on student loans, etc.
Yes, the NDP is for Proportional Representation. Probably the most advanced form of democracy in the world.
cheers!
The federal NDP will offer affordable education. University is free in the social democracies of Europe, and their national debts aren't as large as ours or the U.S.A's.
Zafire says ... I'm not trying to get on your case, but if we're having a discussion here, let's make it a discussion, rather than a tirade. You seem to be campaigning for the NDP, so convince me. You have indicated that rather than paying down debt, the NDP would spend projected surplulses on social programs, i.e.-education et. al. You also suggested that 40 years of NDP rule would be about the right amount of time to bring us in line with your imagined Euro-topia. What kind of landscape, (economic and otherwise), would we be facing after that period of time without a thought for national debt?
Since there is no federal NDP record to point to as an example, we have to bounce back and forth and to and fro a little. Look back at Hideo Mimito's Stats Can report about Canada's debt service payments during the late 1980's. Hideo showed us that 50% of deficit payments were due to mismanaged compound interest on the entire debt; 40% was due to legally owed, unpaid corporate income taxes; 8% was due to program spending in general and only 4% of deficit payments went to cover debt incurred by social progams in Canada. Stats Can Hideo was chastised by the Mulroney feds as they were trying to make a case for cutting and slashing social programs at that time. Paul Martin is now taking up the same conservative cause with the goal of reducing our debt to GDP ratio by some number and set to achieve that lower number by 2012. Socialists and conservative economists alike are saying that debt fighter Paul could achieve the same result by not doubling up on our debt service and simply allow the resultant expanding economy pay half as much in debt service(same as now) and achieve the desired debt to GDP ratio ... exactly one year later. The NDP points to our ailing health care system, the underfunding of health care across the country and increasing dissatisfaction with rising university tuitions. Paul Martin's answer to higher student loan debts is to pile on more for stundents to pay back, as if we need more rope with which Canada's young can can hang themselves with.
Zafire says I'd honestly like you to show me how this would all work... if it's a viable plan, I'd jump all over it come the fall. I don't enjoy being indebted from my education, but I just can't see how handing control of the country over to a party of free-for-all spending spree types will make a difference for the better.
The same way you have entrusted what is the 2nd or 3rd largest national debt in the world to a handful of Liberals who've spent like drinken sailors over the course of 30+ years in Ottawa and have nothing to show for it except promising you you'll be paying on your student loan forever and ever or till you'r first born needs some taking care of, whichever comes first.
I could go off on a rant about Keynesian economics and how the social consensus was formed at a time of global economic recession in the 1930's. Essentially, governments have decided long ago that they have a responsibility to intervene in the economy when recession hits. If we were all earning big money and suffered no undue hardship with paying back our student loans as the cost of living only ever rises, then perhaps there would be no need for student loan reform as well as the funding formula for universities in Canada. But not all of us are, and there is.
And if Paul Martin is talking about joining Uncle Sam in a new Star Wars project as a rouse for corporate welfare handouts to their military industrial complex continues, then surely we can afford social democracy in Canada.
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Eager for enlightenment,
They find the money for handoffs to corporate friends of the Liberal and conservative parties, don't they ?.
The possibilities for honest government are plenty.
The federal NDP will offer affordable education. University is free in the social democracies of Europe, and their national debts aren't as large as ours or the U.S.A's.
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SocialismNow wrote:
