hardship
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Topic: hardship
Posted By: kp
Subject: hardship
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 2:49am
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Hi all i am new... Can some one tell me where i can get the
“hardship” application to have student loan debt or obligation discharged (BIA , s. 178(1.1 form |
Replies:
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 5:41am
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It depends if you intend to do it yourself or if you want someone to do it for you. What province are you in? ------------- wlb |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 7:31am
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There is no specific application form. There may be an information package provided by he Court in where your bankruptcy occurred. However, it is my understanding that they cannot give legal advice or tell you what to put in your application. If you ask the administrator to give you my direct contact information, I can assist you with your application. This would include how to file the application / motion; your affidavit in support of the motion; supporting material; an analysis of your situation and case law (approximately 140 pages). The cost of filing the application is $10.00 for a summary administration bankruptcy or a consumer proposal. While I charge a fee for my services, it is negotiable based on the complexity of the case. My "batting average" on these applications is about .998 with the majority being on consent. I will explain what constitutes good faith and current / ongoing financial hardship and how you prove these to the satisfaction of the student loan creditors. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: kp
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 10:26am
i am nfld. Well I thought I had to do it myself....I have been discharged from my bankcruptcy since dec 2008...... Thank you for resonding
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Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 1:27pm
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I have two questions for you? 1.What was your end of study date (last day of last month of last semester you attended school). You student loan creditors can give you this date. 2. What was the date of your bankruptcy? From your discharge date, I assume that you went bankrupt prior to March 2008. Your trustee would have told you that you had to be out of school for 10 years before your student loans were subject to discharge. He told you that upon his discharge your student loans would be revived and when the 10 years were up, you could apply to have the loans included in that bankruptcy. So you patiently wait for the 10 years to expire. On July 7, 2008, the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act was amended. It allowed any discharged bankrupt or maker of a successful consumer proposal who was out of school for 5 years eligible to seek "hardship" relief. Some people who were out of school for 7 years but not 10 and were discharged after July 7, 2008 suddently found that their discharge now covered their student . So if you were out of school for 7 years at the date of bankruptcy and because your discharge date was after JUly 7, 2008 (December 2008), you student loans would already be subject to discharge. If you were not out of school for 7 years, you could apply for hardship relief provided that you could establish good faith and current / ongoing and the courts order would render your student loans subject to your December 2008 discharge. Contact the site administrator and ask that he direct a personal email to me and I will answer any of your specific questions about this process. In the alternative, the local bankruptcy court may have information that would allow you to make your own application. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 1:52pm
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I get the impression the hardship discharges are becoming more possible than they seemed before? I was also wondering, it seems like the end of study date has been more or less clarified to be defined as when someone stopped being supported by student loans? thanks for your help! |
Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 2:36pm
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There is a package of this information available at the courthouse in St. John's. This will guide you how to do it. It is free. The Registrar of the bankruptcy court has it. I have copies of it also if you want it.
------------- Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 3:26pm
| I actually just started a consumer proposal, which I know you generally advise against, but I did the proper research and felt and still do that it was the right decision. I was just wondering about the hardship process and the clarification of the 7 year rule (restarting the clock etc...) because posts regarding this seem to have become more favorable to the debtor recently. I was just wondering if it was my imagination :) After my consumer proposal I fully intend to pay off my loan in full, but it never hurts to get all the information I can should life not go as planned. Im in school now and that didn't go as planned the first time. Also, thanks so much for the help, i was completely disorganized and lost before discovering this site. |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 3:44pm
| woooops i thought that was directed at me! |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 5:49pm
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Kenneman: The end of study date is defined by the legislation, the Canada Student Loan Act, the Canada Financial Assistance Act and the enactment of any province for the granting or guaranteeing of loans. Non government funded or guaranteed education does not generally extend the study end date unless in some instances it directly related to funded education. It is up to you to decide if you want to make the application yourself. I equate the application process to repairing my car. There are things I can do myself and there are things that a professional can do or assist with. Since you can make as many applications for relief as you want, you can have several chances to get it right OR you can get it right the first time. That is where you have to make the decision. If you need some help even doing it yourself, contact me. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 27/January/2010 at 6:55pm
| I am not looking to right now, and hopefully I will be in the position not too, I was just looking for some more information, which you have provided. Thank you. If I ever need help I will contact you |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 2:05am
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Kennerman: When did you cease to be a full or part time student with respect to your federal and provincial loans? What was the date of your consumer proposal? ------------- wlb |
Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 3:12am
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Hey Ken,
What type of work do you do? what did you study? What was included in your CP?
------------- Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 5:33am
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I am currently involved in a proposal that will take me to about 6 years past my end of study date. I only play on applying for this if I face actual hardship and hopefully it wont be neccesary, I was just fishing for information. Currently I am a student with a menial part time job, in a completely new field, it is going well. The federal portion of my student Loan(well aware it wont be discharged), 2 credit cards, some fees owing to my former school, and some minor debts phone bill etc are all included. Also, I am including a year i attended school part time in the same field of study , as my loans but after losing interest free status (my fault) depending on how this is looked at, it may actually be seven years. Anyway, it is really an issue for another day, I was simply trying to gather some information. You have both been very helpful in understanding this mess! |
Posted By: kp
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 8:56am
| thanks all fpr your help |
Posted By: kp
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 8:58am
| i went to school to obtain 1 ABE credot is that still considered a full time student although I was funded through HRLE......... |
Posted By: kp
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 8:59am
| how do i get the copies |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 11:49am
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kennerman: 1. If the time you were in school (provided there is an interruption) that was not funded by student loans is not used in the calculation of the end of study date. (which it is not) 2. If you have ceased to be a full or part time student for 7 years as you indicate 3. If your proposal ends after July 7, 2008 Your student loans will be discharged by your propoal I suggest you call your student loan creditors and get your "real" end of study date. If it is more than seven years from the date of your consumer propoal, the student loans will be discharged when the proposal is completed. No court order required. Let us know? ------------- wlb |
Posted By: Ruby
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 12:32pm
| I also need some help applying for the hardship I can't find anyone to help me I live in Alberta |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 1:01pm
| It won't be 7 years unfortunetly. 5.5 or 6.5, depending on how that one grey area year will be counted. I am optimisitic because, I was no longer interest free that year. Anyway I will see if I can find this out but if they give me the run around, I am going to leave it for another day, since I am busy with school, and the issue is still more than 2 years away from even being a factor, but I know full well that I will need a court order to get them discharged. I also do not have a problem paying them as I did borrow the money. I strategized my consumer proposal to come off my credit report after I finished my master's in 6 years. I screwed up my first chance at post secondary education, being 19 and dumb and am lucky enough to have another shot thanks to a supportive family! I will let you know how my situation plays out though. Thanks. |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 1:09pm
| Sorry, one more question. Is there a difference between the 5 and 7 year mark when trying to have student loans included in a previous bankruptcy? A bankruptcy in which they had not been discharged, obviously. |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 28/January/2010 at 4:18pm
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Yes. The seven year period refers to the time a bankrupt or consumer debtor has to be out of school in order for the student loan to be subject to discharge. Prior to July 7, 2008, the period was 10 years. Example: A student ended his studies 2000 and went bankrupt in 2006 his classmate went bankrupt in 2008. The student loans are not dischargable in the 2006 bankruptcy because the student was not out of school for 7 years. However, the student loans in the 2008 bankruptcy are subject to discharge. This is why I kept asking how long you had been out of school. The five year rule applies only to a hardship application. Any student loan debtor is eligible to make a hardship application if he / she is discharged and has ceased to be a full or part time student for five years. Example: Study End Date - May 2004 Consumer Proposal is successfully completed November 2009. Trustee not discharged, Consumer debtor can make a s. 178 1.1 application the day after successful completion as he is now discharged and out of school for five years. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 29/January/2010 at 12:54am
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The 7-year period replaces the previous 10-year limitation. The 5-year rule applies to cases whereas hardship is involved that would warrant an earlier discharge based on those circumstances. ------------- Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 29/January/2010 at 10:30am
| hey i think you might be misunderstanding me a bit Iknowalotof stuff. I mean when applying to have your loans discharged in a previous bankruptcy. Like for example someone was out of school in 2002, filled in 2005. What would the difference between making an application to have them discharged under a previous bankruptcy in say 2007, and 2009? sorry if i wasen't clear. Thanks. |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 29/January/2010 at 12:01pm
| After 7 years you do not need to prove hardship to have it discharged under a previous bankruptcy? Sorry if I am making you guys repeat yourselves, this is all very new to me. |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 29/January/2010 at 12:09pm
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haha just to be clear what i am asking is, is it only possible to have student loans included in a previous bankruptcy in the case of hardship? sorry I realize im making this confusing. |
Posted By: xtos
Date Posted: 03/February/2010 at 11:34am
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Just to make sure. 1 Do they count 5, 7 or 10 years from the Last End of Study Date that was funded by Student Loans? ------OR----- 2 Do they count (does the Clock Re-set), if you took any kind of course/program, anywhere in Canada or Outside Canada, but with NO GOVERNMENT FUNDING AT ALL? 3 Where can I find a List/Info on what constitutes as Hardship? 4 Is there a difference between, if you had the Permanet Disability when appying and using the Disability Grants during the time of study, compared to becoming Disabled after leaving school??? also, what if your Existing Disability that you had during your studies, got worse or you developed additional Disabilities after leaving school. 5 Is any of the above impacted, if the Program was NOT completed for whatever reason even if you wanted to finish, but the School's Policies have changed preventing you from Finishing???
Thanks |
Posted By: ericsson12
Date Posted: 05/February/2010 at 7:15am
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I am looking for a lawyer to handle my hardship to include my student loan in Ottawa, Ontario. Do you guys have any lawyers names, information for me to contact?? Because I am overseas. So I can not be there phisycally to do it. Thanks. |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 05/February/2010 at 7:18am
| Iknowalot of stuff, are you saying you have a 98% rate with your hardship applications, for discharging under a previous bankruptcy? |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 05/February/2010 at 4:05pm
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Yes my success rate is that high because I only take on clients who can meet the criteria based on my strict assessment process. I will not just make an application to earn a fee. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 05/February/2010 at 4:15pm
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Keenerman: A student loan is subject to discharge if the debtor has been out of school for 7 years at the date of bankruptcy. If the debtor make an assignment or proposal before the 7 years has elapsed, he can make a hardship application one he is discharged provided he has been out of school for 5 years. The seven an five refer to different provisions of the same rule. Let's say you ceased your studies in 2002 and went bankrupt in 2005 and were discharged in 2006. You could make a hardship application any time after July 7, 2008 as you would at that date have ceased to be a full or part time student for a period of 5 years and were discharged. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 06/February/2010 at 8:25am
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The 7-year rule applies to those who bankrupt themselves on or after the coming into force of the legislative ammendment. So those who went bankrupt before the coming into force still have the ten-year rule in place. Theoretically, that would be an opposition's argument. ------------- Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 06/February/2010 at 11:37am
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Your post is absolutely incorrect. The effective date of the amendment to the 10 year rule reducing it to 7 was July 7, 2008. Suppose a student loan debtor's end of study date is April 30, 2000. Suppose they make an assignment in bankruptcy on June 1, 2008 when the 10 year rule was still in effect. They obtain their discharge on April 1, 2009. Would their student loans be subject to discharge? According to your post above, the student loans would not be subject to discharge as the debtor was not out of school for 10 years at the date of bankruptcy. If this is your advice, it would be wrong. The transitional provisions provide that if the debtor was discharged after July 7, 2008 AND was out of school 7 years at the date of bankruptcy, the student loans become subject to discharge regardless of the 10 year rule at the date of bankruptcy. I recently had a client who went bankrupt in 2000. She was never discharged. She simply failed to fulfill her duties. She forgot about her discharge until she was sued and garnished by her student loan creditors in 2009 - 10. The bankruptcy fell of her credit file in 2007 and she was re-establishing herself. Her end of study date was 1993. At the date of bankruptcy, she was subject to a 10 year rule having been out of school only 7 years. I obtained her discharge for her in January 2010. Guess what happened to her student loans and the judgment obtained by HRSDC. Upon her discharge, her student loans became subject to discharge, the judgment became subject to her discharge and the garnishment stopped. This should not have happened according to your advice. For those who went bankrupt under the ten year rule and have been discharged, they have 3 options: (1) pay the debt; (2) go bankrupt again since they have been out of school for 7 years or (3) make an application under s. 178 1.1 to have the student loans subject to their earlier discharge. If they cannot pay and a second bankruptcy under today's new rules would be very devastating, the s. 178 1.1 application makes sense. It can be made at any time after discharge for anyone out of school for 5 years regardless of the 10 year rule in effect at the date of bankruptcy. Bankrupts have already suffered the consequences of bankruptcy. A s. 178 1.1 application can not make the situation worse. If it fails you are exactly where you were before the application. No harm ... no foul. Let me repeat so no one is confused by Johnny's post. The 10 year rule applies only to those who were not out of school 10 years and were discharged before July 7, 2008. The seven year rule applies to anyone out of school for seven years and discharged after July 7 2008 regardless of whether they were previously subject to the 10 year rule at the date of bankruptcy. Any debtor who has been discharged and has been out of school for five years and their loans are not subject to the discharged explained above can make an application under s. 178 1.1. A successful applicant must demonstrate good faith and financial hardship according to the Act. Johnny, your post only adds to the confusion that abounds the 1, 2, 10, 7 and 5 year rules that have existed under rule 178. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 06/February/2010 at 11:44am
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Ericsson12: If you ask he webmaster to give you my email address, I will help you at nominal cost to make a s. 178 1.1 application. You do not need a lawyer. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 06/February/2010 at 4:42pm
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It is not what I came up with Stuff. It is what lawyers have advised me. Are you an attorney? ------------- Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com |
Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 06/February/2010 at 4:55pm
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Reduction of the student loan discharge period from 10 to 7 years. This amendment will apply where the debtor obtains his or her discharge on or after July 7, 2008 (PROVIDED that at the time they filed they had ceased to be student for the required seven years) or the debtor had or becomes bankrupt on or after July 7, 2008. The amendment that will reduce to five years the period a bankrupt will have to wait to make a “hardship” application to have student loan debt or obligation discharged (BIA , s. 178(1.1) is also now in force. This amendment applies to all debtors notwithstanding when the bankruptcy or the process that results in the bankruptcy is initiated. ------------- Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 07/February/2010 at 3:21am
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This clarifies your earlier post. A student may have made an assignment under the 10 year rule but because their discharge was after July 7, 2008 the s. 178 1(g) period was reduced to 7 years. It is the date of discharge that determines whether whether the period between the end of study date and the date of bankruptcy is 7 or 10 years. I do not understand how what your stated in your earlier post could be an "opponent argument"? Question: We both agree that some student loans may be subject to a limitation period established in the province where the loan was granted or under certain provisions of Canada Student Loan Act or the Canada Student Financial Assistance Act. What is the difference between a previously bankrupt debtor making an application under s. 178 1.1 to deal with their student loans when they do not have the ability to pay or a non-paying student debtor using the SOL to argue that they do not have to pay any more? I don't see much difference between these options. The is use of a SOL defence is the use of a technicality to prevent from being sued. The debt is still owing even if it cannot be collected. A successful application under s. 178 1.1 renders the debt subject to an "earlier" bankruptcy discharge and the debt is no longer owing to the student loan creditor. Provided the debtor has established to the satisfaction of the student loan creditor or the court that they have acted in good faith and are experiencing and will continue to experience financial hardship with respect to their liabilities under the loans, they will no longer owe the money. Do you assist your clients in making s. 178 1.1 applications if they qualify? Do you insist that former bankrupts try to pay the loans even if they could meet the requirements of s. 178 1.1? I am just trying to figure out what it is that you do? Several years ago, non-profit CCS were government programs. In some provinces such as Ontario, CCS received funding from the Ministry of Community and Social Services. The NDP government decided to cut the funding. It was assumed that Ontario would opt into the OPD progran as other provinces had OR they would get funding doing the mandatory counselling new to the BIA and become administrators of consumer proposals. This never happened. The funding was never restored. This happened in the early 1990's Most non profit CCS are funded partially by the United Way or religious organization in addition to the amount received from credit grantors. CCS were reluctant at first to accept this funding but out of a sense of survival found they had no other choice. You paint them with the same brush as for profit debt poolers that they are not. I find your comments about these non-profit United Way agencies as a bit self-serving? My comments are made as I ran one of these agencies for 20 years. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 07/February/2010 at 12:35pm
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"What is the difference between a previously bankrupt debtor making an application under s. 178 1.1 to deal with their student loans when they do not have the ability to pay or a non-paying student debtor using the SOL to argue that they do not have to pay any more? I don't see much difference between these options."
First let's distinguish a fact. If an individual can pay a student loan that is statute barred then he or she should. I voice this all the time. If people come to me looking for escape then I do not assist. It is that simple. THe resaon I am bringing this up is because you are clearly of the view that a limitation issue really does mean the person it applies to does not have to pay any more. As said above, I do not take that position because it is the wrong position to take. Look Stuff, you have an assessment process and so do I and this demonstrates to the system that people actually are not what the system accuses them of. A cultural viewpoint if you will.
One significant difference between a section 178 and the use of a limitation issue is very clear. Section 178 is a bankruptcy proceeding. This proceeding does cvome with imnplications in redspect of credit reporting. In the limitation arena it does not in most cases. A limitation issue is not a porthole of careless or neglectful escape in my realm of business.
The major difference here is that people who are able to pay benefit from doing what is right when The CFW Group is involved. I am going to tell you something, Stuff. I have done volunteer work for more Canadians in financial distress than you could fathom. If the case warrants it I still do it today. My business is all about helping people make better choices that align with economic wellness, social stability, turn-around management, and healthy consumerism uninhibited by the warped culture and bias within Canada's financial community. Consumer and corporate bankruptcy is not what Canada needs to see an increase of.
Now, a section 178 is just the conclusion to bankrupty. It does not help the individual recapture their true identity back. I wish it did buit it doesn't. If an individual cannot repay a debt because they will never ever be able to get out from underneath it, and a section 178 is in order, then it is an awesome prescribed solution.
" The is use of a SOL defence is the use of a technicality to prevent from being sued. The debt is still owing even if it cannot be collected."
If a debt is statute barred then it is a defense.
You are incorrect about the life of the debt after it has been deemed barred. Some provincial governments may take the position that this is case. However, if they are challenged then the result is quite different. The problem is that much of the consumer population does not have the financial ability or patience to challenge. The limityation of actions and proceedings states that no action or proceedings can be taken. Some take the position that this applies to "legal action and proceedings" only. I know this not to be the case.
"Do you assist your clients in making s. 178 1.1 applications if they qualify?"
Read the above response. I provide people with the navigation towards it in the event someone asks me. I simply advise them to seek out the navigational tool provided by the registrar's of provincial bankruptcy courts. I am gathering them for those people who contact me to ask about a section 178 application. If I make an assessment whereas a section 178 application would be the best option, then direction is given. If I knew you I would refer people to you. I just don't know you.
As for the non-profit debt poolers out there that I know of, I fail to see how they can actually represent themselves as non and not-for-profit. You have a debt pooler out here in the east who is engaged in these massive television commercial campaigns. This is over a million-dollar per year expense. In your world there is such thing as a not-for-profit business. In mine there is not.
1. Debt poolers service the financial industry first - the consumer last.
2. Debt poolers do not assist people in any significant way when it is deemed that they do not qualify for a debt management program. They simply tell people to hide from the collectors until bankruptcy can be actioned (or go underground and live the life of a gopher until the limitations come in to play). If they are calling themselves counselors then they should counsel in one productive way or another. It is that simple.
3. Debt poolers depend on the commission earnings from the financial industry for survival. That places the primary incentive as getting people to sign up into a debt management program in order to make money.
4. Look at their financial and bank records online and see how many millions of dollars are earned - and spent on salaries and advertising. It is incredible.
5. Not-for-profits are able to make more money now that they are private and so connected to the financial industry on a fee-for-recovery basis. I don't need to make that much money - and The CFW Group's business methodologies are more able to service the consumer population.
6. The CFW Group's Student Crisis Service Division earns fees for services by it's clients. Not a commission from creditors or any component of the financial industry. The CFW Group is involved in other things than educating, coaching, or intervention for the consumer population.
You have to understand that I am not knocking you for running one of those businesses. I am not knocking your expertise in your particular areas of business. The not-for-profit credit counseling industry does need change I can tell you that. It needs to be pro consumer. I find it quite interesting and I applaud you for it. You are confrontational and I respect that. You have to be in order to face the ugliness of systemic failures and obtuse internal policies that the financial community conjures up. We both face these barbaric fronts and this is where you and I are so much alike.
Johnny
------------- Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 08/February/2010 at 8:10am
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This site is designed to give debtors particularly student loan creditors non bankruptcy options. These non bankruptcy options include for profit services (like yours and 4 Pillars), non-profit services (like CCS), for profit debt poolers and consultants. Your position is that in order to get client oriented service the service should be paid for by the debtor. Any service paid for by the creditor is self serving and suspect because of the inherent conflict of interest. I would disagree with respect to non-profit charitable organizations. As long as there is credit, there will be credit problems. I equate credit to tobacco. Both are legal. Both are addictive. Both cause problems for society. Both the purveyors of credit and tobacco should be part of a cure. I see the charitable donations as investments in a cure for the problems created. There is no doubt that the donations are self serving but they are still donations into programs that help people. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: administrator
Date Posted: 08/February/2010 at 8:19am
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I remember one 'not for profit' place I took some courses. The 'school' paid licensing fees to a parent organization that miraculously exactly equaled the surplus income of the 'school', therefor the 'school' could claim they were non profit and not for profit. The parent company earned millions for its shareholders.... Clever setup, clever accounting, very profitable. Just pay out the profits in high salaries and you can be not-for profit. The company shows no profit but employees/owners clearly benefit. ------------- Administrator Mark OMeara Author of Let Go and Heal: Recovery from Emotional Pain https://LaughSingWrite.com - http://bit.ly/heal2024 |
Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 08/February/2010 at 10:09am
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"A nonprofit organization (abbreviated NPO, also not-for-profit) is an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization - organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals. In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada - Canada , NPOs may be formed at either the federal or provincial levels. Charities must generally be registered with the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Revenue_Agency - Canada Revenue Agency and may issue tax receipts for donations. The funds received from credit grantors are charitable donations. This is the difference between for profit debt poolers and collection agencies. All of the funds generated from debt repayment programs are invested in assisting clients not generating profit."
This is the textbook definition. However, debt poolers are collection agencies. They are licensed as them, and they are treated by the financially community like them. They recover money for creditors and they depend on them for commission. Their incentive is very transparent. A fair share is what they call it. a donation. It is just another business that sugar coats a brick of salt. They make themselves appear sweet.
High salaries. Heavy advertising campaigns. That is how they work their magic.
Stuff, you will disagree with whatever I say about bankruptcy and non-profits. You defend them all you want. Your business is bankruptcy. Mine is not. You have your opinions about other services and their effectiveness in comparison to bankruptcy and it's effectiveness. It is of no consequence. You preach bankruptcy and I will continue to help people make much better choices in life.
------------- Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com |
Posted By: SolveStudentDebt
Date Posted: 08/February/2010 at 10:14am
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FYI - The non-profits get a percentage of the amount recovered (or owed) by the consumer. Collection agencies are paid a percentage of the amount recovered. Non-profits disguise themselves as anything but a collection agency. Who would seek them out for assistance then? So, they had to come up with a way to gain the trust of financially troubled consumers. It is an American methodology, and that is what is happening here in Canada. ------------- Solve Student Debt specializes in solutions for students and graduates in student loan default, and those at risk of defaulting. http://www.solvestudentdebt.com" rel="nofollow - solvestudentdebt.com |
Posted By: Iknowalotofstuff
Date Posted: 08/February/2010 at 12:14pm
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Finally we can agree on something. American methodology is creeping into the Canadian arena and it scares me. Where ever there is buck to be made, the Americans are there to take advantage. Living in close proximity to Michigan, I am inundated daily with TV / radio ads by for profit debt relief agencies. Many of the US agencies are owned by credit grantors. But this invasion by US debt poolers should be stemmed by regulation just as the invasion of pay day loan companies has been regulated. The Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act has provided that each province or territory could establish a provincial Orderly Payment of Debt Program. Only three provinces chose to enact a government OPD program - Alberta, Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia. The other provinces chose to come up with their own form of programs. Ontario in the late 60's and early 70's decided to treat debt problems as a social problem. The plan was to allow local social service agencies who met certain criteria to start CCS programs that would be funded 70% by the province of Ontario with the remainder generated locally. In Ontario, this 30% came from United Ways, Catholic and Jewish religious organizations, trade unions, etc.. went this way for about 23 years. For profit agencies are governed by a CEO, a board of directors and shareholders. Non profit agencies are governed by unpaid boards of directors. Ten, Ontario elected an NDP government who was looking to cut social service costs. There was a change of thinking. First, the new BIA amendment of Nov 1992 should allow CCS to administer consumer proposals. They would get the initial $1800.00 plus 20% of the funds disbursed leaving no need for provincial funding. Second, for the past 23 years, the credit community had been getting a free service. Since the programs worked and were by now professional, the time had come for them to contribute. Government funding stopped almost immediately. The province had not counted on the strong backlash by the trustee community to non trustees administering proposals, The Province had not contracted the Fed to see what their position was. Finding themselves without funding, the non profit credit counselling agencies negotiated an arrangement with the Canadian Banker's Assoc. to make charitable donations equal to 10% of the funds disbursed under the debt repayment plans. At the same time, the Collection Agencies Act was amended to remove any requirement for any member agency of the Ontario Association of Credit Counselling Services to register as a collection agency. Based on this premise and the consolidation of several agencies, non profit CCS has survived in Ontario. I speak only about Ontario. These non profit agencies are run by a local board of directors and reflect the communities needs. Some people think of CCS as "ducks". If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it must be a duck. CCS in Ontario are not ducks, While they may appear to act like collection agencies or for profit debt poolers. They are not the same. I choose to give them the benefit of the doubt rather than lump them in with everyone else because I know what they do and how they are motivated. To all of those people looking for help, it is not the worst thing you could do to contact a non profit CCS in your community to discuss your situation. Usually the first visit is free, Even if all you get out of the meeting is free information, you are no worse off than before you went in. Also do your due diligence and ask all of the questions necessary to make a informed decision. Seek a second opinion ... Call someone like Johnny and get his take on your situation. Once you have gathered all of the information to make an informed decision, do what is right for YOU. Education not dogma is he key. Become an informed consumer. Find a solution that works for YOU. ------------- wlb |
Posted By: kennerman
Date Posted: 17/March/2010 at 2:40pm
| what usually constitutes hardship? is being underemployed enough? Do you need a long term disability? I am a few years away from being done my consumer proposal, I am just examining options. Thanks. |
Posted By: Madmorrigan
Date Posted: 18/March/2010 at 10:39am
| The definition of "hardship" depends on the day, and the person who's lucky enough to get your paperwork....hell, even death doesn't qualify as 'hardship' in some cases (I remember a well-publicized case a few years ago of a former student that had an accident and was on life-support--they continued to hound her family, even after she died). |
Posted By: 2befree
Date Posted: 08/July/2012 at 7:49am
| I would be interested in having you contact me as well! |